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-   -   Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/115404-swiss-women-earn-41-percent-less-than-men.html)

starfish 02.06.2011 07:10

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214054)
Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men


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Source

This is even worse that I could imagine! :eek:

Thanks!
Excellent timing .... I will go now and add 41% to the six fig. salary and post my (part-time) contract this morning.
... oh, it's 7 figures now ... :D :p

ullainga 02.06.2011 11:20

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by starfish (Post 1215755)
Thanks!
Excellent timing .... I will go now and add 41% to the six fig. salary and post my (part-time) contract this morning.
... oh, it's 7 figures now ... :D :p

See, there are people here earning 1 000 000 for a part time job and we get upset if someone asks "is 120 000 enough to live on". I guess we won't be seeing you in threads complaining about the price of meat either.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 02.06.2011 11:26

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I know in America it was found that women don't negotiate as hard for salaries as men and spend more time out of the work force, both of these will affect these stats if this is also true in Switzerland (well I think the latter is, not sure about the former):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2...ating_salaries

Salary negotiation is very important, especially early in your career because it sets a standard. If women aren't "fighting" for higher wages well...

Men were found in the States to be 8X more likely to negotiate starting salary pay than women. That's pretty big, but I'm not sure how significant this is to the overall disparity...

Capacitrix 02.06.2011 13:03

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1215877)
Salary negotiation is very important, especially early in your career because it sets a standard.

Whenever my boss says I've done something well, I mention that he should remember that when he's thinking about pay raises (only in private, of course). Seems to help.

But it's frustrating. I mentioned to some female coworkers (all Swiss) that I have an engineering degree and they told me that that's a man's job. :mad: Not surprisingly, most of the female engineers I know at my company are not Swiss.

amogles 02.06.2011 14:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1215877)
Salary negotiation is very important, especially early in your career because it sets a standard.

A Swiss friend of mine has moved to the USA and works in engineering. He is the most lazy sod you can imagine (always has been, always will be) but knows how to bluff his way. Because his achievment wasn't too glamorous most years (and this is an understatment) he didn't push too hard at the salary negotiations because he didn't really want a truly objective apparaisal of what he'd really done. By and by the rest of the department outstripped him salarywise. Earlier this year, the company was taken over by a competitor who've started getting tough and are eliminating three quarters of his department. They've been looking at this from a purely cost perspective with the result that he's keeping his job whereas many of his more succesful colleagues are saying bye bye. So never ever say laziness doesn't pay.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 02.06.2011 15:15

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1216060)
A Swiss friend of mine has moved to the USA and works in engineering. He is the most lazy sod you can imagine (always has been, always will be) but knows how to bluff his way. Because his achievment wasn't too glamorous most years (and this is an understatment) he didn't push too hard at the salary negotiations because he didn't really want a truly objective apparaisal of what he'd really done. By and by the rest of the department outstripped him salarywise. Earlier this year, the company was taken over by a competitor who've started getting tough and are eliminating three quarters of his department. They've been looking at this from a purely cost perspective with the result that he's keeping his job whereas many of his more succesful colleagues are saying bye bye. So never ever say laziness doesn't pay.

This happens. At my old job in America, they basically laid off everyone who was paid too much (most of the senior people) or people's whose technical skills were not up to par. The technical part was not quite fair, because when the people were hired (maybe 10 years or so ago) less was required. I didn't get laid-off (made redundant) but 4 other folks did, all senior to me. We were under government contract so they had to go, the positions were cut. It was not actually the governments decision per say, but they choose who to cut.

MusicChick 02.06.2011 15:29

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capacitrix (Post 1215976)
But it's frustrating. I mentioned to some female coworkers (all Swiss) that I have an engineering degree and they told me that that's a man's job. :mad: Not surprisingly, most of the female engineers I know at my company are not Swiss.

Some of my friends were even surprised I have degrees, as a chick. It made me chuckle. On the other hand I have female friends here who go through extensive training, don't talk about it much. Why would one, anyways...

st2lemans 02.06.2011 16:37

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1215607)
here around (Zürich and suburbs) a majority of all the mothers (of children above 8 years of age ..... in case of younger children it is very very far from easy) go working full time.

Definitely not the case in Ticino, most families I know are single income.

Tom

Wollishofener 02.06.2011 20:28

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 1216147)
Definitely not the case in Ticino, most families I know are single income.

Tom

This is why so many a bit older folks in Zürich love the Ticino ! It is so much like Zürich-Kanton was back in the 1950ies, with its charming oldworldliness ;)

st2lemans 02.06.2011 20:36

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1216358)
This is why so many a bit older folks in Zürich love the Ticino ! It is so much like Zürich-Kanton was back in the 1950ies, with its charming oldworldliness ;)

My daughter, after years of partying in Brescia, etc. (Milano was too boring), has moved to Cevio, even more out in the sticks then we are! (OK, it's less than 1/2 hour to Locarno)

She is only 20, though.

Tom

Moorsholm 02.06.2011 23:04

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
It's a re-occurring theme. And after living here 11 years it's something I still haven't got my head around and to be honest don't think I ever will get my head around.

Even the very "liberal" BaselStadt recently voted "No" to tagesschule (full day schools) I just don't get it, I really don't. With a day school (lunch included) women would have around 7 hours each day to work uninterrupted. Kids could still go home for lunch if that suited the family set up better.

All the talk of arrangements with neighbors and ingenious set ups by working mums so their kids are taken care of, is really an issue. They shouldn't have to do that.

I have a 9 year old son - I would not leave him alone to fend for himself for the 2 hour lunch, nor would I leave him roaming the streets unsupervised for 6 hours on the days where there is no school. (12-18.00)

There are kids in his class who unfortunately are in that position and it works fine when all the kids are playing out together. But when no-one else is out or when it's cold and rainy what tends to happen is they'll call at our place and want to come in. Or at other houses where there is a parent or relative home. One 9 year old boy who has a house key round his neck said, he really doesn't like going home to an empty apartment as he feels scared. Boys that age can also get into real trouble if left to roam the streets for hours.

Until Switzerland implement a full day structure at school - there is not a cat in hells chance that women will come close to having equal opportunities in the work place and that really isn't fair on many women and especially the young women working hard to build their career and take their qualifications.

Wollishofener 02.06.2011 23:54

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1216480)
It's a re-occurring theme. And after living here 11 years it's something I still haven't got my head around and to be honest don't think I ever will get my head around.

Even the very "liberal" BaselStadt recently voted "No" to tagesschule (full day schools) I just don't get it, I really don't. With a day school (lunch included) women would have around 7 hours each day to work uninterrupted. Kids could still go home for lunch if that suited the family set up better.

All the talk of arrangements with neighbors and ingenious set ups by working mums so their kids are taken care of, is really an issue. They shouldn't have to do that.

I have a 9 year old son - I would not leave him alone to fend for himself for the 2 hour lunch, nor would I leave him roaming the streets unsupervised for 6 hours on the days where there is no school. (12-18.00)

There are kids in his class who unfortunately are in that position and it works fine when all the kids are playing out together. But when no-one else is out or when it's cold and rainy what tends to happen is they'll call at our place and want to come in. Or at other houses where there is a parent or relative home. One 9 year old boy who has a house key round his neck said, he really doesn't like going home to an empty apartment as he feels scared. Boys that age can also get into real trouble if left to roam the streets for hours.

Until Switzerland implement a full day structure at school - there is not a cat in hells chance that women will come close to having equal opportunities in the work place and that really isn't fair on many women and especially the young women working hard to build their career and take their qualifications.

So sorry but the "Tages-Schule" (full day structure) simply is NOT to get a majority. Not least as quite many of the adults of today were pupils some while ago, and that Tages-Schule simply is horror. I am quite in favour of female rights but your wish is against the pupils clearly.

Your "full day structure" elsewhere may leave freedom to the pupils but here it would result in a full day tyranny AGAINST the pupils.

Moorsholm 02.06.2011 23:57

Why is the full day structure a horror? Why would it be against the students? I attended a full day school from age 5 in the UK as did millions of others, not only in the UK but in many other countries around the world. I completely loved it. I still don't understand the resistance - could you explain a little more clearly?

Having to get up at an ungodly hour in the dark and rain to start classes at 7.20 isn't too popular with many students I talk to. A day structure would mean much more reasonable schooling hours!! (Like 9 - 4) I don't know many students who'd object to that! (and I know quite a few students;))

MusicChick 03.06.2011 08:51

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1216480)
Until Switzerland implement a full day structure at school - there is not a cat in hells chance that women will come close to having equal opportunities in the work place and that really isn't fair on many women and especially the young women working hard to build their career and take their qualifications.

I completely agree with you. And that the only real gripe (aside of selective manners and weirdness towards foreigners some people freely demonstrate..) that bugs me about living here and raising a girl in here. People can say all they want, but time has stopped here in some issues decades ago, while other world moved on. I feel kids are being used as an excuse to keep woman in their traditional role. Which is actually saving cash for the country, it is cheaper than providing cheaper and accessible day care and after school care. Not very good shopping hours for both working in the family either. I even heard a person saying it's the man/head of the family who decides where the family lives here, traditionally, when we needed to move to civilization here to give me more access to job market, and then I was dished out this why can't a woman get used to living in a tiny community and needs a city life, for what superficial reason? It was hilarious. Like women really have to defend their rights for career, more user friendly child care system, any other equality issues...The very late waver for chicks to vote, just seems very logical.

Another thing is, as I a teacher, have fab memories of anything that comes with school, recess was great as well. Different staff (also had to have a degree to actually do this, but the best ones were old experienced grandma types, we called them "recreation educator"), structured, fun, recreational activities, we played smart games, played sports, read stories, had scouts (well, commie ones), had new friends since we regrouped, but that all contributed to very good edu, and it was also outside. Have kids running free outside is nice, but why not offer them an alternative to that, that also increases chances for women for decent career, family budget, and over all reception of women here and their role here..

So, Stephanie, I understand. And, it seems we were able to make it alright here, but also had a different mindset to come here with.

Carlos R 03.06.2011 09:08

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1216480)
Until Switzerland implement a full day structure at school - there is not a cat in hells chance that women will come close to having equal opportunities in the work place and that really isn't fair on many women and especially the young women working hard to build their career and take their qualifications.

Yein - in principle I agree. However, CH is one of the few places where I've seen men "job-share" with their wives. I don't mean specifically share their job, but one half works 30-40-50% and the other a complimentary 70-60-50% (examples I've come across can be either half working more or less).

That said, I didn't know many people "of my age" working with kids in the UK - when working there - so don't know if this practice is common there or elsewhere.

As an aside, why is it the school's fault though?

Surely it is society's as a whole, given the predominant assumption that men work, women stay at home? Furthermore, the stats are clear that usually women who work 100% still do the majority of the home care and housework - in effect holding down two jobs - compared to their male other halves... this would need to be addressed as much as schooling hours to have any major impact. Maybe that's why married women die younger?

Wollishofener 03.06.2011 10:38

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1216533)
Why is the full day structure a horror? Why would it be against the students? I attended a full day school from age 5 in the UK as did millions of others, not only in the UK but in many other countries around the world. I completely loved it. I still don't understand the resistance - could you explain a little more clearly?

Having to get up at an ungodly hour in the dark and rain to start classes at 7.20 isn't too popular with many students I talk to. A day structure would mean much more reasonable schooling hours!! (Like 9 - 4) I don't know many students who'd object to that! (and I know quite a few students;))

In schools here, students can leave school over lunchtime for two hours, and so not only go home but enjoy quite some freedom at that time and in summer in good weather even can go swimming over lunchtime. Then, after 4pm they are off-school and most can enjoy some 2 or even 3 hours of free off-school time. I and my schoolfriends would have HATED it to be "kept in school" all day long, under the close surveillance of the teachers.

The 7.20 / 7.30 start was introduced, to compensate for the Saturday morning, which in our time was "school-time". Saturday-morning was two or three lessons from 8am to 12.00 . This until about 1960 also was the working hours in offices and workshops around the country, but later became a reason for anger among the people. The early start allows to release the children relatively early, as outlined above. Further on, do not forget that 7.30 is the time when work is started in the workshop of industry, when public transport gets into full swing, and when personnel in many shops either already have opened their places or are busily preparing for the opening. I mean, people get up between 5am and 7am, so that I do not anything about "UNGODLY" about it


************************************************** ********************************

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1216480)
It's a re-occurring theme. And after living here 11 years it's something I still haven't got my head around and to be honest don't think I ever will get my head around.

Even the very "liberal" BaselStadt recently voted "No" to tagesschule (full day schools) I just don't get it, I really don't. With a day school (lunch included) women would have around 7 hours each day to work uninterrupted. Kids could still go home for lunch if that suited the family set up better.

All the talk of arrangements with neighbors and ingenious set ups by working mums so their kids are taken care of, is really an issue. They shouldn't have to do that.

I have a 9 year old son - I would not leave him alone to fend for himself for the 2 hour lunch, nor would I leave him roaming the streets unsupervised for 6 hours on the days where there is no school. (12-18.00)

There are kids in his class who unfortunately are in that position and it works fine when all the kids are playing out together. But when no-one else is out or when it's cold and rainy what tends to happen is they'll call at our place and want to come in. Or at other houses where there is a parent or relative home. One 9 year old boy who has a house key round his neck said, he really doesn't like going home to an empty apartment as he feels scared. Boys that age can also get into real trouble if left to roam the streets for hours.

Until Switzerland implement a full day structure at school - there is not a cat in hells chance that women will come close to having equal opportunities in the work place and that really isn't fair on many women and especially the young women working hard to build their career and take their qualifications.

When we were 9 or 10 years old, we were, in good weather, sent out on Wednesday afternoon and Saturday afternoon to spend our time in the open air. We went to the forest, we went on excursion by bycicle, we went swimming, we went playing football, and so on and on. Nothing "roaming the streets", but learning to use our time ourselves, and allowing our parents (particularily on Saturday) to take care of their own things.


************************************************** ***************************************


Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 1216628)
I completely agree with you. And that the only real gripe (aside of selective manners and weirdness towards foreigners some people freely demonstrate..) that bugs me about living here and raising a girl in here. People can say all they want, but time has stopped here in some issues decades ago, while other world moved on. I feel kids are being used as an excuse to keep woman in their traditional role. Which is actually saving cash for the country, it is cheaper than providing cheaper and accessible day care and after school care. Not very good shopping hours for both working in the family either. I even heard a person saying it's the man/head of the family who decides where the family lives here, traditionally, when we needed to move to civilization here to give me more access to job market, and then I was dished out this why can't a woman get used to living in a tiny community and needs a city life, for what superficial reason? It was hilarious. Like women really have to defend their rights for career, more user friendly child care system, any other equality issues...The very late waver for chicks to vote, just seems very logical.

Another thing is, as I a teacher, have fab memories of anything that comes with school, recess was great as well. Different staff (also had to have a degree to actually do this, but the best ones were old experienced grandma types, we called them "recreation educator"), structured, fun, recreational activities, we played smart games, played sports, read stories, had scouts (well, commie ones), had new friends since we regrouped, but that all contributed to very good edu, and it was also outside. Have kids running free outside is nice, but why not offer them an alternative to that, that also increases chances for women for decent career, family budget, and over all reception of women here and their role here..

So, Stephanie, I understand. And, it seems we were able to make it alright here, but also had a different mindset to come here with.

The "PRO-Tagesschule" folks chose Basel-Stadt as the place where the idea had possibly the best chance to succeed and LOST. I do not believe that you will find a majority for the idea in ANY other Canton .


************************************************** ****************************************

No, the husband no longer is "head of the family" and no long can decide about the choice of lodgings, since the new federal family law (part of ZGB) came into effect on 1st January 1988 . A marriage is a "legal partnership" of equal partners. And women at marriage can opt to have their "old" family-name still, in combination with the family-name of the husband, and if they desire it, to have the "old" name in FRONT of the one of the husband.

ullainga 03.06.2011 10:48

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1216731)
In schools here, students can leave school over lunchtime for two hours, and so not only go home but enjoy quite some freedom at that time and in summer in good weather even can go swimming over lunchtime. Then, after 4pm they are off-school and most can enjoy some 2 or even 3 hours of free off-school time. I and my schoolfriends would have HATED it to be "kept in school" all day long, under the close surveillance of the teachers.

only because you were used to a different system. I always had full days and would have HATED massive 2 hour breaks if it meant we would actually finish school 2 hours later or start 2 hours earlier. For me ti would be more fun just to get it over with and enjoy a longer school-free evening instead.

MusicChick 03.06.2011 10:53

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1216739)
When we were 9 or 10 years old, we were, in good weather, sent out on Wednesday afternoon and Saturday afternoon to spend our time in the open air. We went to the forest, we went on excursion by bycicle, we went swimming, we went playing football, and so on and on. Nothing "roaming the streets", but learning to use our time ourselves, and allowing our parents (particularily on Saturday) to take care of their own things.

I think it is great, surely is. But, what is not great there aren't alternatives, much, to this. Recess isn't obligatory, but for those who due to careers or due to loving recess themselves, because it was a good one, would be glad to leave their 5-9/10 yr old there. So, while we had recess we didn't actually have to go. I went when I was small, eventhough mom was actually home with my baby brother and I could have learned how to use my time myself, or, hang out with girlfriends at recess, listening to our carer read fairytales, have role playing with material that was given to us, have art classes, music, field trips, etc. Much more flexible. And actually, it is happening slowly here too. Commune is providing some support it seems, little by little, one just have to be quick to sign the waiting list. Otherwise, the parascholaire lunch included, is still expensive as hell. So, without a family here, with woman wanting to work full time, not easy. The neighbors making arrangements, families chippin' in, is just a way to cope in a difficult scenario, a thing people have to do because there is no other alternative. (we are lucky with neighbors, anyways). When you think how unmingling this culture really is, people stick to old friends and family, then you have a strata of population who frantically networks, because it is so expensive not to. It's not a bad thing, overall, but people shouldn't have to.

Thanks for multiquoting, Wolli!

Wollishofener 03.06.2011 11:05

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1216759)
only because you were used to a different system. I always had full days and would have HATED massive 2 hour breaks if it meant we would actually finish school 2 hours later or start 2 hours earlier. For me ti would be more fun just to get it over with and enjoy a longer school-free evening instead.

This is not realistic. HERE, a full-day school would in reality mean a day in school from 8.30 until 17.30 :(
-
This may be different in some other countries, but the topic here is Switzerland and NOT "some other country" :D

ullainga 03.06.2011 12:18

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1216822)
This is not realistic. HERE, a full-day school would in reality mean a day in school from 8.30 until 17.30 :(

hm no I don\'t understand really. If you have to fit x hours of classes into a school day, then surely the schoolday would be 1 hour shorter of you only had 1 hour of lunch instead of 2?


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