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  #141  
Old 05.06.2011, 19:49
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Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

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Our resources:

Leftovers from the building compound, muddy brook, unbuilt corner of the estate, football, newts, tennis balls, cricket bat, frisbee, several Chopper bikes and penknives.

Our activities:

Endless fun, without adult supervision or organisation.


I feel sorry for modern 8 year olds with their tennis classes and piano lessons and all that nonsense. When do they get the time to learn how to be themselves?


If you have kids lets discuss. If you're an armchair critic and do not actually have kids then you're talking in generalizations here.

Most kids around here have ample "free time" to learn how to be themselves. Especially when the nights are light, they (including my own son) are out playing (football, catch the zombies, climbing trees, hide and seek) for several hours each and every day.

Most kids also have at least one "hobby". My son plays tennis - so does my husband. Son and hubby have training every Friday evening at the club over the road. I don't feel sorry for him at all - in fact I think it's great that he's interested in and has the chance to play tennis whenever he wants.


So your own musings about a childhood spent playing games outside without parental intervention are not so far away at all from the reality I see when I look out of my window and occasionally catch sight of my son and friends running off playing the latest game of whatever.

But all that is lovely. Having no-one at home and being forced to play outside everyday whatever the weather - or to be forced to return to an empty house/apartment - is less idealistic and it is exactly what we are talking about in the discussion about school days and school hours. It's exactly that situation which is a reality for many kids whose mums have to work full time and they are left to fend for themselves on a daily basis for up to 6 hours a day - at primary age. Something very different indeed from having the freedom to play out and be themselves.

And that is why many women who have a career or would like not to give up on their career would greatly appreciate a day structure at school which might even include fun and sports for the kids too. Different point completely.

Last edited by Moorsholm; 05.06.2011 at 20:01.
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  #142  
Old 05.06.2011, 20:15
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Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

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comprehensive slap down
Oops... serves me right for diving into the thread on the seventh page and not reading the context...
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  #143  
Old 05.06.2011, 20:31
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Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

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Rural living - city living - you can't really compare the two.
Well, I would NEVER live in a city, nor work in one.

Beyond that, as a single (i.e. widowed, not divorced) parent for 8+ years, I think my input is totally valid.

Tom
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  #144  
Old 05.06.2011, 21:45
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Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

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If you have kids lets discuss.
Come on, you can't keep all childless teachers and educators out of the profession, that would create more problems than it would solve...

From a "let's think of an ideal school day" perspective, I must say that an offer of various activities under supervision for the last part of the day would be a good thing for everybody. It worked like that with mothers' engagement until the recent reform in Germany, so one would have to find and pay people to replace those parents who would then have the possibility to get a career or their nails done (I am arguing the freedom of choice, not forcing half of the population into hard labour).

From a local culture perspective, I must insist on the main idea I was trying to get across earlier: people like it the way it works, even if it does not work for the best of all parts involved. I've even seen a report about mothers bringing fat food to their kids in a british school because they didn't accept the Jamie Oliver approach of school food... mothers basically killing their children with fried fat, nevertheless I don't think they don't love their children (that means I think they do love them).

The idea that a whole day of school is too long for children is not really something to be discussed in CH. Even if one wants a whole day programm for children, it will have to be with a large part of non-school (i.e. non academic) agenda. Nothing wrong about it, but that would mean three big changes the Swiss famillies, even in red Basel, would find difficult: financing a parallell system of free time activities, taking away from familly a part of the non-academic education, and making obligatory hence controlling a part of people's free time. All three means directly or indirectly an attack on families' freedom to raise their children the way they want. It would be canton taking over the two sides of education (in the English sense of the word): academic and pastoral. That may be a wonderfully nice thing in some cultures, but it is not what the parents here ask the school to do. To convince them that it would be a good thing would take a lot of convincing work (Überzeugungsarbeit).

In other words, the two german words Ausbildung and Erziehung are not misstaken for oneanother in people's mind. The English word education meaning both, some confusion appears in discutions in the German speaking world. Same in French with the two vers éduquer and élever the children (School should educate children, not raise them). I am blaming it on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, so please do not take it personnaly as English speakers.
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  #145  
Old 05.06.2011, 22:41
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Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

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Come on, you can't keep all childless teachers and educators out of the profession, that would create more problems than it would solve...

From a "let's think of an ideal school day" perspective, I must say that an offer of various activities under supervision for the last part of the day would be a good thing for everybody. It worked like that with mothers' engagement until the recent reform in Germany, so one would have to find and pay people to replace those parents who would then have the possibility to get a career or their nails done (I am arguing the freedom of choice, not forcing half of the population into hard labour).

From a local culture perspective, I must insist on the main idea I was trying to get across earlier: people like it the way it works, even if it does not work for the best of all parts involved. I've even seen a report about mothers bringing fat food to their kids in a british school because they didn't accept the Jamie Oliver approach of school food... mothers basically killing their children with fried fat, nevertheless I don't think they don't love their children (that means I think they do love them).

The idea that a whole day of school is too long for children is not really something to be discussed in CH. Even if one wants a whole day programm for children, it will have to be with a large part of non-school (i.e. non academic) agenda. Nothing wrong about it, but that would mean three big changes the Swiss famillies, even in red Basel, would find difficult: financing a parallell system of free time activities, taking away from familly a part of the non-academic education, and making obligatory hence controlling a part of people's free time. All three means directly or indirectly an attack on families' freedom to raise their children the way they want. It would be canton taking over the two sides of education (in the English sense of the word): academic and pastoral. That may be a wonderfully nice thing in some cultures, but it is not what the parents here ask the school to do. To convince them that it would be a good thing would take a lot of convincing work (Überzeugungsarbeit).

In other words, the two german words Ausbildung and Erziehung are not misstaken for oneanother in people's mind. The English word education meaning both, some confusion appears in discutions in the German speaking world. Same in French with the two vers éduquer and élever the children (School should educate children, not raise them). I am blaming it on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, so please do not take it personnaly as English speakers.

Faltrad - thanks for this post. I'm starting to understand now it's about difference in mindset. "Family freedom versus state control". This also fits in well with discussions I've had with a very good friend of mine (who is Swiss - now living in Berlin) about the education system. I can understand this position well and also why this debate is such a heated one
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  #146  
Old 05.06.2011, 23:35
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Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

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Faltrad - thanks for this post. I'm starting to understand now it's about difference in mindset. "Family freedom versus state control". This also fits in well with discussions I've had with a very good friend of mine (who is Swiss - now living in Berlin) about the education system. I can understand this position well and also why this debate is such a heated one
A good way to view things.

After all, if there is universal child care, it has to be paid for, which means higher taxes.

Which in turns means that a lot of families that survive just fine with one income can no longer afford to do so, and need two incomes just to pay the additional taxes, so the 'choice' of working is no longer a 'choice'.

Tom
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