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-   -   Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/115404-swiss-women-earn-41-percent-less-than-men.html)

Nil 31.05.2011 23:44

Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men


Quote:

Women in Switzerland earn 41 percent less than men, according to the Swiss Federation of Trade Unions (SGB). Wage discrimination has even increased over the past few years, the group said on Friday.



Source

This is even worse that I could imagine! :eek:

31.05.2011 23:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
You have lies, damn lies and statistics Nil

If you look past the punchy headline:

'Rechsteiner said that wage discrimination was a serious problem in Switzerland, and that women generally earned about 10 percent less than men for equal work.'

I'm not sure what difference there is in other countries but I'd imagine it would be around equal. I'm not saying 10% is okay...I'm just saying it's not as bad as 40%

The 41% figures seems to be collating ALL the mens salaries and taking a mean and comparing all the women's salaries and taking a mean. It doesn't say if the women are working part time or what? It's a very vague article and doesn't really tell us much to be honest.

st2lemans 31.05.2011 23:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214054)
Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men


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Source

This is even worse that I could imagine! :eek:

Yes, but they are not doing the same jobs!

Women work at lower paid jobs, is what the article states, and they work less hours.

What employer would pay a man more to do the EXACT same job if they could pay a woman 40% less?

Tom

Nil 31.05.2011 23:50

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1214063)
You have lies, damn lies and statistics Nil

If you look past the punchy headline:

'Rechsteiner said that wage discrimination was a serious problem in Switzerland, and that women generally earned about 10 percent less than men for equal work.'

I'm not sure what difference there is in other countries but I'd imagine it would be around equal. I'm not saying 10% is okay...I'm just saying it's not as bad as 40%

The 41% figures seems to be collating ALL the mens salaries and taking a mean and comparing all the women's salaries and taking a mean. It doesn't say if the women are working part time or what? It's a very vague article and doesn't really tell us much to be honest.

Hey, I found this news from this forum, It is The Local!

If they say it, it most be true!

;)

31.05.2011 23:55

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214067)
Hey, I found this news from this forum, It is The Local!

If they say it, it most be true!

;)

They do earn 40% less than men I'm sure, but what Porschie's saying is that they often work part time or in more menial jobs or a combination of these. This isn't taken into consideration.

31.05.2011 23:58

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I'm not paying a woman 6k per month to make me a sammich...jeez....

01.06.2011 00:01

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1214077)
I'm not paying a woman 6k per month to make me a sammich...jeez....

It's the only way that sammich's gonna get made mate.

Nil 01.06.2011 00:03

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214075)
They do earn 40% less than men I'm sure, but what Porschie's saying is that they often work part time or in more menial jobs or a combination of these. This isn't taken into consideration.

It is true, it also says that woman have more insecure jobs and yes, in case of seperations or divorces, they are more often the one in financial trouble.

Still sad indeed. Because even with 2 persons; a man and a woman, with the same work experience, diplomas, etc. the woman is still going to earn less than the man.

Still lot of work to do on that topic.

01.06.2011 00:05

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214080)
It is true, it also says that woman have more insecure jobs and yes, in case of seperations or divorces, they are more often the one in financial trouble.

Still sad indeed. Because even with 2 persons; a man and a woman, with the same work experience, diplomas, etc. the woman is still going to earn less than the man.

Still lot of work to do on that topic.

A lot of it is because they want to or at least decide to earn less. Oftentimes they choose to prioritise children over a career and then their eventual work/wage expectations are reduced.

Nil 01.06.2011 00:08

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214084)
A lot of it is because they want to or at least decide to earn less. Oftentimes they choose to prioritise children over a career and then their eventual work/wage expectations are reduced.

Don't forget that society still expect the women to do that sacrifice more than the men.

Choice isn't always an option. If a woman work her a$$ off to get far in her career and studied like crazy to get where she is, I am not sure she'll be happy to see her work value being less than a man for the same job.

MusicChick 01.06.2011 00:12

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214075)
They do earn 40% less than men I'm sure, but what Porschie's saying is that they often work part time or in more menial jobs or a combination of these. This isn't taken into consideration.

I am not sure if they necessarily want to work more part time/more menial jobs than guys. The child care situation here and school hours don't really help it, either.

W-Maximus 01.06.2011 00:14

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214088)
Don't forget that society still expect the women to do that sacrifice more than the men.

Choice isn't always an option. If a woman work her a$$ off to get far in her career and studied like crazy to get where she is, I am not sure she'll be happy to see her work value being less than a man for the same job.

If men could breast-feed, would they burn their bras ?

01.06.2011 00:14

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 1214092)
I am not sure if they necessarily want to work more part time/more menial jobs than guys. The child care situation here and school hours don't really help it, either.

Nothing says women have to take care of the kids while the men go to work. It's the woman's problem if they choose to concede to social norms, this isn't Saudi Arabia. If you're in a position to choose, and you choose to have kids and have them with a guy who believes women take care of the kids/work part time, then that's the choice you've made.

MusicChick 01.06.2011 00:22

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214097)
Nothing says women have to take care of the kids while the men go to work. It's the woman's problem if they choose to concede to social norms, this isn't Saudi Arabia. If you're in a position to choose, and you choose to have kids and have them with a guy who believes women take care of the kids/work part time, then that's the choice you've made.

Many people are not in the position to chose. Event the kids vs loss of the income/career dilemma is a luxury for some. The one earning less will get the kids and chaperon them over lunch break, will keep them when family has no cash for creche, etc. In a way, it is still Saudi Arabia for a lot of the women I know.

If men could breastfeed? There have been cases of guys lactating, yes. I really do not want to think about it. But for those who aren't lactating, there still are freezers full of their wives' expressed milk.

Bras are too pretty to burn, anyways. :)

Upthehatters2008 01.06.2011 00:30

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Sounds about right...

01.06.2011 00:35

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 1214101)
Many people are not in the position to chose. Event the kids vs loss of the income/career dilemma is a luxury for some. The one earning less will get the kids and chaperon them over lunch break, will keep them when family has no cash for creche, etc. In a way, it is still Saudi Arabia for a lot of the women I know.

If men could breastfeed? There have been cases of guys lactating, yes. I really do not want to think about it. But for those who aren't lactating, there still are freezers full of their wives' expressed milk.

Bras are too pretty to burn, anyways. :)

Not feeling you can say no and not being able to say no are really worlds apart. I can assure you remarkably few women in Switzerland truly have no choice when it comes to their lives.

Upthehatters2008 01.06.2011 00:45

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Given the choice...staying at home looking after the kids is a luxury...

W-Maximus 01.06.2011 00:48

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1214111)
Given the choice...staying at home looking after the kids is a luxury...

Try it once..and you will be begging to go back to work for a rest...

MusicChick 01.06.2011 00:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214107)
Not feeling you can say no and not being able to say no are really worlds apart. I can assure you remarkably few women in Switzerland truly have no choice when it comes to their lives.

The situations I have watched were often about not knowing what to do, being afraid of daring, conservatism caused by just following the route moms and grannies did, society maybe expecting certain roles, etc. that's true, but often also about costs, creche costs, and prioritizing the one with reliable work with higher income that will tie the family over the rough times, etc. I wouldn't say that these days it's a reasonably equal ride, with the costs attached here and other obstacles, but loads of people share, also. Some can't. I wouldn't say the one who decides to stay at home because it helps the family budget, gives up career, later takes whatever comes, a part time job here and there and slowly builds it back up, has no control over her life. Of course there is prioritizing and decision making, but sometimes some people have less room to decide themselves.

01.06.2011 00:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1214111)
Given the choice...staying at home looking after the kids is a luxury...

dont be bloody stupid, I'd rather take out a loan for a nanny.

MusicChick 01.06.2011 00:50

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by W-Maximus (Post 1214112)
Try it once..and you will be begging to go back to work for a rest...

For networking, social contact, recognition, independence, for future career moves...

Upthehatters2008 01.06.2011 00:51

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214115)
dont be bloody stupid, I'd rather take out a loan for a nanny.

My kids are great, being with them and looking after them during the working day is a luxury money cannot buy...

W-Maximus 01.06.2011 00:55

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1214118)
My kids are great, being with them and looking after them during the working day is a luxury money cannot buy...

Would you consider a part exchange ?

Upthehatters2008 01.06.2011 00:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by W-Maximus (Post 1214121)
Would you consider a part exchange ?

I looked after my kids for 6 months during a career hiatus. Got them up, fed them, took them to school, met them after school, shared their homework and wiped their proverbial backsides for 6 months. The happiest time of my life.

Yes, I do work in IT, yes I do work for a bank. Not really a plausible argument really. I am the modern world cottage slave.

01.06.2011 01:02

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by W-Maximus (Post 1214121)
Would you consider a part exchange ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1214125)
I looked after my kids for 6 months during a career hiatus. Got them up, fed them, took them to school, met them after school, shared their homework and wiped their proverbial nappies for 6 months. The happiest time of my life.

Yes, I do work in IT, yes I do work for a bank. Not really a plausible argument really. I am the modern world cottage slave.

For his kids mate, a part exchange for his kids.

Treverus 01.06.2011 02:01

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214080)
It is true, it also says that woman have more insecure jobs and yes, in case of seperations or divorces, they are more often the one in financial trouble.

No, it doesnt say this at all.

1)worse paying is not more insecure. How do you jump to that conclusion? It only means that Swiss females are on average less high educated or work in jobs that pay on average less. The educated part specifically means "education an employer is willing to pay for". And from my experience this is entirely true and I cannot blame the employers alone on it: Swiss society - and this includes the 50% females - is still set up in the way that you are supposed to have a small family and a small house with a small garden. As a man, you go to school and learn something that first and most importantly should be able to support a family and then it should maybe interest you as well. If you are female you go to university and have some fun till you manage to catch your banker/doctor/...
No, not all Swiss are like this, but enough to make this statistic sound completely reasonable to me. How many percent of all engineering students are female here?

2) How on earth can you conclude that divorced females are worse off? Especially if there are kids, the Swiss system is fairly discriminatory for the same old-fashioned reasons described above: The woman will on default get the kids, I guess one would need to be able to proof schizophrenia or something on a similar level in order to convince a judge to give the kids to a guy. The dad on the other hand is invited to pay for many years, because even then he remains the one expected to support the not-anymore-existing family.

Nil 01.06.2011 08:58

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I think you need a reality check from single mothers of this forum Treverus... Hopefully they will step in and tell you what it is like :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1214141)
No, it doesnt say this at all.

1)worse paying is not more insecure. How do you jump to that conclusion? It only means that Swiss females are on average less high educated or work in jobs that pay on average less. The educated part specifically means "education an employer is willing to pay for". And from my experience this is entirely true and I cannot blame the employers alone on it: Swiss society - and this includes the 50% females - is still set up in the way that you are supposed to have a small family and a small house with a small garden. As a man, you go to school and learn something that first and most importantly should be able to support a family and then it should maybe interest you as well. If you are female you go to university and have some fun till you manage to catch your banker/doctor/...
No, not all Swiss are like this, but enough to make this statistic sound completely reasonable to me. How many percent of all engineering students are female here?

2) How on earth can you conclude that divorced females are worse off? Especially if there are kids, the Swiss system is fairly discriminatory for the same old-fashioned reasons described above: The woman will on default get the kids, I guess one would need to be able to proof schizophrenia or something on a similar level in order to convince a judge to give the kids to a guy. The dad on the other hand is invited to pay for many years, because even then he remains the one expected to support the not-anymore-existing family.


01.06.2011 09:00

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214228)
I think you need a reality check from single mothers of this forum Treverus... Hopefully they will step in and tell you what it is like :)

And we'll listen! But we'll listen equally to single fathers so they can tell us what it's like too. I hope you didn't forget to mention the single fathers Nil, I really do. That would have been the first sexist post of this thread.

simon_ch 01.06.2011 09:05

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I'm too lazy to back this up with some official figures but from my memory of various publications:
-women study social sciences, guys study engineering, economy (almost equal now) and hard sciences
-women's jobs are safer and they are less likely to be unemployed
-women are overrepresented in the public sector
-men are more likely to live in poverty
-men drop out of school more often
-women bargain less for their salary
-men work more

conclusion: men and women earn different salaries.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 09:09

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1214063)
You have lies, damn lies and statistics Nil

If you look past the punchy headline:

'Rechsteiner said that wage discrimination was a serious problem in Switzerland, and that women generally earned about 10 percent less than men for equal work.'

I'm not sure what difference there is in other countries but I'd imagine it would be around equal. I'm not saying 10% is okay...I'm just saying it's not as bad as 40%

The 41% figures seems to be collating ALL the mens salaries and taking a mean and comparing all the women's salaries and taking a mean. It doesn't say if the women are working part time or what? It's a very vague article and doesn't really tell us much to be honest.

10% sounds realistic. Let's realize that pregnancy does not stop men from working but can kill the career of a woman.

BUT if you realize that there are women like secretaries of directors who even if not having too heavy qualifications earn far more than highly qualified commercial employees in the same companies, this unfortunately means that the differences are far higher "farther down" :o and that often without any real basis. It was decades ago, when we learnt that our boss on the phone with a good friend openly declared "women here are just helping-hands". Miss C. , who had heard this by chance, gave notice within a months and went elsewhere. I then hoped that such ideas were to become a thing of the past before long, but I fear that I was not realistic and that such notions as the ones of Mr W.... still are around :p

grumpygit 01.06.2011 09:10

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Whats the problem with women earning less than men. The combined income of the couple makes the average anyway, and if the single woman earns less, well it won`t be forever cos she will meet a bloke and there you are. An if she can`t ever find a bloke she must be a bit of a boiler anyway.

Nil 01.06.2011 09:14

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1214230)
And we'll listen! But we'll listen equally to single fathers so they can tell us what it's like too. I hope you didn't forget to mention the single fathers Nil, I really do. That would have been the first sexist post of this thread.

Honey, I am not sexist at all, the thread was about swiss women, I am just staying on topic. I know too well how disgusting the court can be toward fathers in divorce. My dad was a victim of it and the kids as well.

I am not going into details but I can assure you that I am the first one in here who'll stand to fight for fathers rights.

But this topic is about the swiss women.

PaddyG 01.06.2011 09:15

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Well, that's obvious isn't it?. They work 41% less. ;)

Chemmie 01.06.2011 09:37

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
next thing you know, they'll let them vote....awww damn, I'm forty years late

ullainga 01.06.2011 09:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemmie (Post 1214325)
next thing you know, they'll let them vote....awww damn, I'm forty years late

surely you mean 20? All women in Switzerland finally had a vote only in 1990.

MacGregor's Daughter 01.06.2011 10:16

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
There are certain Swiss employers who are still old school. I earn as much as my colleague (male) doing the same job. But a man was promoted some years ago even though I was much better qualified for the job. I got promoted in the end, but of course now I'm lacking the years of experience in that particular position. In the States I would and could have sued them for billions, but in Switzerland you have no chance to do that.

I still remember that one job interview many years ago when my kids were still young and the prospective employer ( who obviously just then read my cv) asked me what I was thinking about, taking a job like that with two young kids at home. That's the whole point. You don't get hired or promoted in the first place.

Mud 01.06.2011 10:23

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214251)
Honey, I am not sexist at all, the thread was about swiss women, I am just staying on topic.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../nigelsexy.jpg


Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGregor's Daughter (Post 1214428)
There are certain Swiss employers who are still old school. I earn as much as my colleague (male) doing the same job. But a man was promoted some years ago even though I was much better qualified for the job. I got promoted in the end, but of course now I'm lacking the years of experience in that particular position.

I don't get the experience bit. I suppose it's not necessarily a Swiss thing, but I've noticed it here more than elsewhere. My last employer had two guys working who made more than I did, both did half the work and were less competent put together than I or several other of my lower paid collegues. But they got more pay since they had more experience, or were significantly older. One was eventually asked to leave, the other retired, and I (and several others) left all on our own ;).

st2lemans 01.06.2011 10:33

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1214395)
surely you mean 20? All women in Switzerland finally had a vote only in 1990.

Only on the local level, on the federal level it was 40 years ago.

Tom

taskalem 01.06.2011 10:55

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214067)
Hey, I found this news from this forum, It is The Local!

If they say it, it most be true!

;)

Actually it is true, depending on which angle you take:) This is a very nice example of how to tell lies using statistics:D

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 11:04

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1214395)
surely you mean 20? All women in Switzerland finally had a vote only in 1990.

Female voting rights were introduced in the Canton of Zurich in 1969. Female voting rights were approved on the Federal level in 1970 and introduced within a year.

So that it IS 40 years ago ! :)

The exception, Appenzell Innerrhoden, only has 15'000 inhabitants, and so is not too relevant. Your wording "all women" therefore is rubbish.


************************************************** ******************************************

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 1214474)
Only on the local level, on the federal level it was 40 years ago.

Tom

AND, on the local level (municipal & cantonal) it generally was rather BEFORE the Federal level !


**


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