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Old 02.06.2011, 22:42
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Facts & quotes please.
I do not have quotes of Mr Göbbels either
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  #22  
Old 02.06.2011, 22:58
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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I do not have quotes of Mr Göbbels either
Göbbels quotes are easy to find - quotes to substantiate your claims are harder to find, perhaps because they dont exist.

By mentioning Göbbels, btw, you invoked Wikipedia reference-linkGodwin's law.
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Old 02.06.2011, 23:07
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Göbbels quotes are easy to find - quotes to substantiate your claims are harder to find, perhaps because they dont exist.

By mentioning Göbbels, btw, you invoked Wikipedia reference-linkGodwin's law.
THIS here
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_W...ritik_am_Islam
covers the man nicely. To demand a prohibition of the Koran in the Netherlands is discriminatory indeed. YOU should be reminded of similar prohibitions against "Verjudeted ...." things in Germany.

Sure, he in the past described Israel as "the light of democracy ...." but I just wonder when more Arabs and Jews learn that people hating either side earlier or later turn against the other side as well You possibly know that Jean-Marie lePen also hates/hated Jews. His charismatic daughter is not so easy to estimate and so, things may be subject to change. I am against "Sippenhaft" and so do not make conclusions about HER out from what is known about her father.

BUT the report above makes it clear that Wilders is clearly a Neo-Nazi and an anti-Semite.
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Old 02.06.2011, 23:33
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Thank you for reminding me what should remind me of what - you are most kind and, of course, Europe's Muslims of today are like the Jews in Hitler's germany. pathetic.

The man doesn't like political Islam - populist & rather non politically correct, but a valid political point.

To the best of my knowledge, he never called to expell all muslims out of europe, like you claimed - perhaps you can provide a quote ? maybe an anti semitic as well while you are at it ?
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Old 02.06.2011, 23:51
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Thank you for reminding me what should remind me of what - you are most kind and, of course, Europe's Muslims of today are like the Jews in Hitler's germany. pathetic.

The man doesn't like political Islam - populist & rather non politically correct, but a valid political point.

To the best of my knowledge, he never called to expell all muslims out of europe, like you claimed - perhaps you can provide a quote ? maybe an anti semitic as well while you are at it ?
A) NO, he did not refer to "political Islam" but quite clearly and definitely to Islam quite in general . Your argument sounds a bit like "wenn das der Führer wüsste" !
B) Discriminatory positions against a whole ethnic group are NOT a "valid political point"
C) He DID call for all Muslims to be expelled out of Europe. It was on TV news (not everything is in the Internet).
D) the Arabs are THE Semites, even if Jews ALSO are Semites. And so, he is just using populist tactics. Demagogues in Europe being either against Jews or against Arabs earlier or later turn against the other group. Zinedine Zidane quite correctly in the "pre-last" French presidential elections called those two Algerians who had supported the French Front National "useful idiots", referring to the ways in which LePen shifted forth and back between being anti-Arab and anti-Jewish.
D-2 ) Mr Bubis in Germany very early realized the dangers to both sides and so started an alliance with the Turkish minority in Germany. You are free to regard Mr Bubis (unfortunately passed away in the meantime) and the supreme Rabbi of Paris (who did similar things) as fools. Personal opinions of that Supreme Rabbi have been on TV sufficiently often, and were sufficiently clear. I think, he tried his very best to explain to explain to the Arabs in France that rightwing groups who are anti-Jewish today will be anti-Arab tomorrow.
D-3) Arabs should stop to believe that anti-Jewish rightwingers being anti-Israeli today will not be anti-Arab tomorrow, .. and Jews should stop to believe that anti-Arab rightwingers being anti-Arab today will not be anti-Jewish tomorrow

There are clear and unmistakable lessons to be taken from history, which do NOT need further documentation !
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Old 02.06.2011, 23:56
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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A) NO, he did not refer to "political Islam" but quite clearly and definitely to Islam quite in general . Your argument sounds a bit like "wenn das der Führer wüsste" !
B) Discriminatory positions against a whole ethnic group are NOT a "valid political point"
C) He DID call for all Muslims to be expelled out of Europe. It was on TV news (not everything is in the Internet).
D) the Arabs are THE Semites, even if Jews ALSO are Semites. And so, he is just using populist tactics. Demagogues in Europe being either against Jews or against Arabs earlier or later turn against the other group. Zinedine Zidane quite correctly in the "pre-last" French presidential elections called those two Algerians who had supported the French Front National "useful idiots", referring the the ways in which LePen shifted forth and back between being anti-Arab and anti-Jewish.
D-2 ) Mr Bubis in Germany very early realized the dangers to both sides and so started an alliance with the Turkish minority in Germany. You are free to regard Mr Bubis (unfortunately passed away in the meantime) and the supreme Rabbi of Paris (who did similar things) as fools. Personal opinions of that Supreme Rabbi have been on TV sufficiently often, and were sufficiently clear. I think, he tried his very best to explain to explain to the Arabs in France that rightwing groups who are anti-Jewish today will be anti-Arab tomorrow.
D-3) Arabs should stop to believe that anti-Jewish rightwingers being anti-Israeli today will not be anti-Arab tomorrow, .. and Jews should stop to believe that anti-Arab rightwingers being anti-Arab today will not be anti-Jewish tomorrow

There are clear and unmistakable lessons to be taken from history, which do NOT need further documentation !
Bottom line - No Wilders quotes where he calls to expell all Muslims or where he is Antisemitic.

We'll just have to take your word for it, for what it's worth.
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  #27  
Old 03.06.2011, 00:00
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Surely this is a matter for the Swiss to work out for themselves?
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  #28  
Old 03.06.2011, 00:03
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

I say let him speak. That way, we can demonstrate how we don't believe in his BS and that creed, colour, religion et al don't matter when judging people. You judge people by their actions and Dikke Lul is exactly how we'd see Wilders.

Bigotry exists but it is only the minority. Extreme views and extremists exists everywhere and it's our job to drown out their diatribe.

I'm for free speech - I do believe it would be more damaging to SVP-types hosting such a speaker than to the conservative population.

It's also clear from recent events in Egypt and so on that we, the inhabitants of this planet, have taken the lead in change and not the minority. I'm all for my fellow inhabitants to say what they want and not be dictated to
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Old 03.06.2011, 00:06
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Surely this is a matter for the Swiss to work out for themselves?
Like all other subjects discussed in the "Swiss politics/news" oder ?
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  #30  
Old 03.06.2011, 00:08
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Bottom line - No Wilders quotes where he calls to expell all Muslims or where he is Antisemitic.

We'll just have to take your word for it, for what it's worth.
Here you can see some further info

http://gesamtrechts.wordpress.com/20...d-retten-will/

"voluntary return" ? Does he mean of people who grew up in Western Europe ? Voluntary return of Jews was part of the NSDAP paroles in the 1920ies, while also then it was ignored that at that time the "return" was to a British protectorate mainly inhabited by local Arabs, and so for most Germans no option really
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Old 03.06.2011, 00:09
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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He quite in public advocated active discrimination against ALL Muslims in Western Europe. He advocated the expelling of ALL Muslims from Western Europe. He described ISLAM quite publicly as NOT being a religion but an extreme and criminal movement.

He is the Khaddafi of the Netherlands, except that the Dutch never allowed him to take power !
I realize he is an extremist, even a bigot; however, I feel that if he has the right to say this others have the right to criticize him.

Nazis quite publicly intimidated, killed, beat up opposition socialist, newspapers reports who agreed with them, etc. The German government tried to put them in jail (including Hitler) but was not very affective.

To my knowledge Wilder does not travel with skinheads or brownshirts. He does not advocate or lead bands of thugs to attack Muslims in the street. He is also friends with a ex-Muslim black Somali woman Ayaan Hirsi Ali. In fact she has written in support of him. So his discrimination is not "racial" or even "ethnic" it is specifically religious, which is bad, but lets not be extreme.

Hitler did not befriend blacks or "ex-Jews", in fact he had half black children by the thousands sterilized and put in prison camps (In Mein Kamf he called them the "Rhineland Bastards", yeah I read most of Mein Kamf although it was insufferably pompous and long-winded, with paragraph long sentences). Wilder does not strike me as the type to round up all "darkies" (and I'm a darkie myself) and put them in prison camps.

Although this views are distasteful to me lets not make more of it than it is.


The Dutch are a very vocal people, usually in a positive manner. I'm sure he is publicly protested, let the people decide, let the people put him in his place. It almost seems like those who want to put all shorts of tests and limits on freedom of speech inherently distrust their own populations, and think them too ignorant to figure stuff out for themselves. I have a bit more faith.

It seems like you are saying there should not be real freedom of speech because people will just do what Germans did in Nazi Germany. Uhm if that is the case than all Americans should be Nazis and expelling Muslims by the boatload...that's not happening, immigration from nonWestern countries is still on the increase last I checked, despite arguments about "illegal immigration", legal immigration is not a major topic as it is in Europe.

Well maybe the elites just know better...:-(
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Old 03.06.2011, 00:12
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

A personal note: I lived until age 11 45 minutes away from the Klu Klux Klan headquarters for the Midwest region of the U.S. in Fort Wayne, Indiana. They would march every 2 years or so. We as black people did not riot, sometimes there were counter protest, none to my knowledge got violent since the 1960's. Although the KKK is obviously my "enemy" I would not ban their right to speak. In fact I rather they speak publicly than be a secret hidden organization. Thir speech offends me, but so what? I'm sure I say things that offend people.

Historically in most of our societies in the West we can see clearly quite often that the church and the monarchs often did everything they could to limit freedom of speech of "dangerous individuals" but looking back in hindsight, most of the time these people speaking out were CORRECT to do so. When we start to limit what someone can say because it is not popular that is a dangerous path...a slippery slope.
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  #33  
Old 03.06.2011, 00:18
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Surely this is a matter for the Swiss to work out for themselves?
as documented here
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/30860210
it was neither Switzerland nor any particular Canton who opposed the speaking of that man who compares the Koran with "My Kampf" but the village in question. And villages in Switzerland have some rights to decide about such things. This is the democratic right of any village. Absolutely in line with the Federal constitution.
-
beside the point that Switzerland for quite a while accepted "democratic utterances" of the National Front ("Fröntler" = CH NSDAP) until prohibiting that Nazi-Pack ! That some of them later found refuge in a particular party is unfortunately but so be it

German speaking Europe majority-wise reacts negatively against such demagogues. And many Dutch folks in the Netherlands even in the presence of Swiss visitors do not hesitate to mention Nazi atrocities as reason not to speak German, but in case of doubt at the same time declaring neither to speak English (not to speak of French), and here I refer to personal experiences. But I never met a Dutch who openly supported NeoNazi Mr Wilders. And THIS IS what this man IS ! To defend him is like declaring the KKK as some US nationalist idealists with humanitarian ideals in mind


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I realize he is an extremist, even a bigot; however, I feel that if he has the right to say this others have the right to criticize him.

Nazis quite publicly intimidated, killed, beat up opposition socialist, newspapers reports who agreed with them, etc. The German government tried to put them in jail (including Hitler) but was not very affective.

To my knowledge Wilder does not travel with skinheads or brownshirts. He does not advocate or lead bands of thugs to attack Muslims in the street. He is also friends with a ex-Muslim black Somali woman Ayaan Hirsi Ali. In fact she has written in support of him. So his discrimination is not "racial" or even "ethnic" it is specifically religious, which is bad, but lets not be extreme.

Hitler did not befriend blacks or "ex-Jews", in fact he had half black children by the thousands sterilized and put in prison camps (In Mein Kamf he called them the "Rhineland Bastards", yeah I read most of Mein Kamf although it was insufferably pompous and long-winded, with paragraph long sentences). Wilder does not strike me as the type to round up all "darkies" (and I'm a darkie myself) and put them in prison camps.

Although this views are distasteful to me lets not make more of it than it is.


The Dutch are a very vocal people, usually in a positive manner. I'm sure he is publicly protested, let the people decide, let the people put him in his place. It almost seems like those who want to put all shorts of tests and limits on freedom of speech inherently distrust their own populations, and think them too ignorant to figure stuff out for themselves. I have a bit more faith.

It seems like you are saying there should not be real freedom of speech because people will just do what Germans did in Nazi Germany. Uhm if that is the case than all Americans should be Nazis and expelling Muslims by the boatload...that's not happening, immigration from nonWestern countries is still on the increase last I checked, despite arguments about "illegal immigration", legal immigration is not a major topic as it is in Europe.

Well maybe the elites just know better...:-(
Interesting, but please tell me what part of North America was governed by the KKK ?????


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A personal note: I lived until age 11 45 minutes away from the Klu Klux Klan headquarters for the Midwest region of the U.S. in Fort Wayne, Indiana. They would march every 2 years or so. We as black people did not riot, sometimes there were counter protest, none to my knowledge got violent since the 1960's. Although the KKK is obviously my "enemy" I would not ban their right to speak. In fact I rather they speak publicly than be a secret hidden organization. Thir speech offends me, but so what? I'm sure I say things that offend people.

Historically in most of our societies in the West we can see clearly quite often that the church and the monarchs often did everything they could to limit freedom of speech of "dangerous individuals" but looking back in hindsight, most of the time these people speaking out were CORRECT to do so. When we start to limit what someone can say because it is not popular that is a dangerous path...a slippery slope.
Please explain who did riot against Mr Wilders ? And if so, please do so precisely , thanks


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Last edited by Wollishofener; 03.06.2011 at 00:35.
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  #34  
Old 03.06.2011, 00:22
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

this reminds me of perhaps the most interesting person I met once on a flight from New York to Zurich - Hans-Christof von Sponeck (son of Wikipedia reference-linkHans_Graf_von_Sponeck)

In 2000, he resigned as UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq.

In early 2007, I had the pleasure of sitting next to Hans on a red-eye from JFK to Zurich. He was a remarkable and candid character and I was drawn into conversation with him.

As Saddam Hussein had recently been executed, I asked him two very simple questions about Iraq and Saddam. Firstly, what did he think about the trial and secondly, and more importantly, what did he think could bring stability to Iraq.

The question of stability was clear - another dictator would bring stability to Iraq.

It's not the perfect answer but then again it's not the perfect world. I learned very much from this that we don't have the right or the knowledge to barge into another country and another culture and "police" it. In fact, who says our "way" is the right way?

And given that Hans' father was executed by the Nazis should remind people of the noble people of this world - who, are in fact the silent majority.
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  #35  
Old 03.06.2011, 00:32
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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this reminds me of perhaps the most interesting person I met once on a flight from New York to Zurich - Hans-Christof von Sponeck (son of Wikipedia reference-linkHans_Graf_von_Sponeck)

In 2000, he resigned as UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq.

In early 2007, I had the pleasure of sitting next to Hans on a red-eye from JFK to Zurich. He was a remarkable and candid character and I was drawn into conversation with him.

As Saddam Hussein had recently been executed, I asked him two very simple questions about Iraq and Saddam. Firstly, what did he think about the trial and secondly, and more importantly, what did he think could bring stability to Iraq.

The question of stability was clear - another dictator would bring stability to Iraq.

It's not the perfect answer but then again it's not the perfect world. I learned very much from this that we don't have the right or the knowledge to barge into another country and another culture and "police" it. In fact, who says our "way" is the right way?

And given that Hans' father was executed by the Nazis should remind people of the noble people of this world - who, are in fact the silent majority.
Well, with "the next dictator" he of course meant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat_Ibrahim_ad-Douri
Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri the leader of the Socialist Party
who most likely will, as leader of the re-legalized Socialist Party,
win the next elections
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  #36  
Old 03.06.2011, 01:24
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Freedom of speech IS the freedom to offend.

It's not the freedom to lie (like denying genocide) or to support racism (NPD).

The threat of violence was enough to suppress free speech, not a good sign.
Generally, I'm a supporter of free-speech. I think that if someone is speaking bullsh*t let him say what he wants, and in the free market of thoughts and ideas, it's only the strongest and most thought-out ideas that will survive, and all the bullsh*t will get shot down. Obviously, there are some dangerous examples where this isn't the case, Nazi Germany being the most glaring.

To address your comment Pashosh, the problem with people like Geert Wilders is that they use freedom of speech as a cover for the freedom to lie. For instance in this video (it only took me a few minutes to find an example of his lying) from 6.50 - 7.20 he states that 70% of the Danish prison population is made up of people from an "Islamic background."



Which isn't true at all. The latest offical criminal stats from Denmark from 2009 [http://www.kriminalforsorgen.dk/Default.aspx?ID=71] state that 23% of the prison population comes from ethnic minorities made up of:
15% immigrants
5% descendants of immigrants
3% - No connection to Denmark.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that everyone in that 23% has an "Islamic background", it means that Wilders was still exaggerating figures by 300%. You can't even call that an exaggeration because it's just a blatant lie.

If this was just a single lie in isolation, that would be one thing, but he is in a position of standing and when lies like this are believed, people get angry and the results can be quite undesirable. Just google for "Mosque firebombed" and take a look at the results.

And here are some angrier people...



The problem isn't freedom of speech in and of itself. It's the abuse of freedom of speech, if that makes sense.

Kash.
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Old 03.06.2011, 11:01
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

thanks Kash for your detailed response. GW was actually quoting a "report" he read about "80% of crimes in Copenhagen are commited by immigrants, mostly Muslims".

I found this shocking, but apparently the figure was 82% in 2005.

For a politician lies are working tool. In this case, GW didn't have to use it.

The best would be to invite him to a debate and try to prove the fallacy of his claims, rather then try to shut him up.
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Old 03.06.2011, 11:27
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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thanks Kash for your detailed response. GW was actually quoting a "report" he read about "80% of crimes in Copenhagen are commited by immigrants, mostly Muslims".

I found this shocking, but apparently the figure was 82% in 2005.

For a politician lies are working tool. In this case, GW didn't have to use it.

The best would be to invite him to a debate and try to prove the fallacy of his claims, rather then try to shut him up.
No, it is HE who made such claims and should have to prove his claims. That the crime rate in question moved up and down between less than 20% and more than 80% is practically impossible. The report he quoted most likely had 8,2% which he by "ommitting" the comma made into 82%. And this is demagoguery of Goebbels-like proportions.
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Old 03.06.2011, 11:36
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Freedom of speech IS the freedom to offend.

It's not the freedom to lie (like denying genocide) or to support racism (NPD).

The threat of violence was enough to suppress free speech, not a good sign.
So it's okay to offend as long as you don't offend the Jews?
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Old 03.06.2011, 11:56
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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No, it is HE who made such claims and should have to prove his claims. That the crime rate in question moved up and down between less than 20% and more than 80% is practically impossible. The report he quoted most likely had 8,2% which he by "ommitting" the comma made into 82%. And this is demagoguery of Goebbels-like proportions.
Yet again you assume instead of checking - check the report itself.
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