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  #41  
Old 03.06.2011, 16:55
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

@pashoh..
you want to know the record . This dutch website has collected all of his statements ..
http://www.watwilwilders.nl/indexEN.html
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  #42  
Old 04.06.2011, 00:19
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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@pashoh..
you want to know the record . This dutch website has collected all of his statements ..
http://www.watwilwilders.nl/indexEN.html
Thanks. If he was allowed to speak in Switzerland a serious journalist (or any other member of the public) could have used this site to ask GW some awkward questions and put him on the spot.

As things stand - GW can say that the threat of Islamist violence defeated his right to free speech.
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Old 04.06.2011, 00:36
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Hitler did not befriend blacks or "ex-Jews", in fact he had half black children by the thousands sterilized and put in prison camps (In Mein Kamf he called them the "Rhineland Bastards", yeah I read most of Mein Kamf although it was insufferably pompous and long-winded, with paragraph long sentences). Wilder does not strike me as the type to round up all "darkies" (and I'm a darkie myself) and put them in prison camps.
-
I would not go as far to say that Wilders is as insane as Hitler



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He is also friends with a ex-Muslim black Somali woman Ayaan Hirsi Ali. In fact she has written in support of him. So his discrimination is not "racial" or even "ethnic" it is specifically religious, which is bad, but lets not be extreme.
He only is friend with her as her anti-Islam positions, which in reality are not ideological really but based on horrible personal experiences, suit his purpose. To him, the poor lady is just a "useful idiot"





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To my knowledge Wilder does not travel with skinheads or brownshirts. He does not advocate or lead bands of thugs to attack Muslims in the street.
Although this views are distasteful to me lets not make more of it than it is.
Neither did Messrs LePen and Haider. Such violent chaps are physically dangerous, but political heavyweights are far more dangerous in politics

*****

And now we come to your mentioning freedom of speech. Had he chosen a venue in a larger town or one of the cities, I think he would have had the opportunity. But the village in question had the right to say NO to his visit, in the knowledge that the name of that village would have been damaged very clearly. The City of Zürich allows that SVP meeting once per year, in spite of the fact that the SVP in the City of Zürich is rather weak (not a single person of the SVP in the City government). But in Zürich we are used to people talking rubbish quite in public.

To make it clear, he was NOT stopped by the Union, not even by a Canton, but only by the village in question. A village which, to say it again, took up its right to say NO.
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  #44  
Old 04.06.2011, 00:45
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Thanks. If he was allowed to speak in Switzerland a serious journalist (or any other member of the public) could have used this site to ask GW some awkward questions and put him on the spot.

As things stand - GW can say that the threat of Islamist violence defeated his right to free speech.
No, he cannot say so. As it is not true. But any village allowing him to speak in their place risks to become known as SUCH a place. That Mr Freysinger regards his Canton as "die Schweiz" must be the result of drinking a bit too much Fendant And cities/towns/villages in Switzerland have the right to decide whether they allow a particular even to go ahead or not.

Just to give you a hint. Messrs Freysinger and Wilders might get a go-ahead in Herrliberg
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  #45  
Old 04.06.2011, 22:53
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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He only is friend with Ayaan Hirsi Ali as her anti-Islam positions, which in reality are not ideological really but based on horrible personal experiences, suit his purpose. To him, the poor lady is just a "useful idiot"
A "useful idiot" is someone who,at best, has some theoritcal knowledge about a abominable political system (originally communism, then fascism, and today Islamism) and is willing to support it. Such a person might describe Jihad as peaceful, consider Syria's education system as adequate or even ignore the fact the Egypt is ruled by a military Junta.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has first hand experience of Islamist violence. so much so that she had to flee europe after making her opinions about Islamism known. She is anything but a "useful idiot"
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  #46  
Old 04.06.2011, 23:35
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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A "useful idiot" is someone who,at best, has some theoritcal knowledge about a abominable political system (originally communism, then fascism, and today Islamism) and is willing to support it. Such a person might describe Jihad as peaceful, consider Syria's education system as adequate or even ignore the fact the Egypt is ruled by a military Junta.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has first hand experience of Islamist violence. so much so that she had to flee europe after making her opinions about Islamism known. She is anything but a "useful idiot"
No, a "useful idiot" may have have a most profound knowledge but is ready to support a "movement" opposed to whatever. An Algerian who did support LePen just for his anti-Jewish positions IS such an idiot as he fails to realize that Le Pen also is anti-Arab. This lady, in her desparation and embitterement allows herself to be "used" by this man, not really aware of the fact that he only appreciates her as a useful tool.

Jihad ? The "Lesser Jihad" is just the defence of other Muslims, while the "Higher Jihad" is self-improvement and working for the improvement of the world. It is clearly self-evident that THIS theory leaves room for interpretation and can be be used to justify almost everything

Her views about "Islamism" are shared by a big part of all Muslims. She had to flee due to the danger coming from "Fundamentalists"/"Islamists", AND because people resented her allowing herself to be used by Mr Wilders. She fled from Europe you say ? She fled from Wilders I say
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  #47  
Old 04.06.2011, 23:47
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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No, a "useful idiot" may have have a most profound knowledge but is ready to support a "movement" opposed to whatever. An Algerian who did support LePen just for his anti-Jewish positions IS such an idiot as he fails to realize that Le Pen also is anti-Arab. This lady, in her desparation and embitterement allows herself to be "used" by this man, not really aware of the fact that he only appreciates her as a useful tool.

Jihad ? The "Lesser Jihad" is just the defence of other Muslims, while the "Higher Jihad" is self-improvement and working for the improvement of the world. It is clearly self-evident that THIS theory leaves room for interpretation and can be be used to justify almost everything

Her views about "Islamism" are shared by a big part of all Muslims. She had to flee due to the danger coming from "Fundamentalists"/"Islamists", AND because people resented her allowing herself to be used by Mr Wilders. She fled from Europe you say ? She fled from Wilders I say
She had to flee because Islamists keep trying to kill her. very funny indeed.

You are so sure that she is so stupid to allow herself to be used, but had you read what she said - she has very compelling arguments.

As for the "higher Jihad" - semantics wont get you off the hook. Please book a flight to Saudi and claim that your purpuse of travel is to practice "higher jihad". Being very knowledgable about such things I'm sure they will know what to do with you (similar to what they you would like to do to Ayaan Hirsi ali).
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  #48  
Old 05.06.2011, 00:27
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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So it's okay to offend as long as you don't offend the Jews?
First they came for the Muslims,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came for the EU workers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't an EU worker.

Then they came for the asylum seekers
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't an asylum seeker.

Then they came for the activists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't an activist.

The they came for Julian Assange,
and I didn't speak out because I'm not Julian Assange


Then they came for anyone who was a member of a group such as an Arabic -speaking Forum
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a member of an Arabic-speaking Forum.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for anyone who forgot to get a train ticket.
and I didn't speak out because I was never caught without a train ticket.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Last edited by hoppy; 05.06.2011 at 02:19.
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  #49  
Old 05.06.2011, 03:58
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali does more harm than good, she speaks solely from embitterment. She has become the poster girl of Fox News she typifies them in the way that she distorts facts and shouts down opponents. There are many people who have been abused in every country and religion; think of the boys abused by priests while some priests are still allowed to endorse it (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_865124.html). Does this mean that every single catholic is a paedophile? Ayaan Hirsi Ali enjoys perpetuating stereotypes because she has her own ghosts to fight; she is wrought with revenge for a tribal female mutilation that was committed against her and against her father's (a scholar and devout Muslim) wishes while he was away. The act was committed by her grandmother it is not a part of the Muslim religion it is tribal. Right Wing US think tanks and Fox news manipulate her financially. She does not represent Muslim women, she denigrates all Muslim women as idiots unless they comply to her ideals.

She constantly refers to the Hadiths as being the Koran, this is incorrect. But she does not correct it because she aims to mislead, although I do not think that she is stupid enough not to know the difference - or is she? She does this (in my opinion) because she cannot find enough ammunition in the Koran itself. The hadiths are an advisory on how to interpret the Koran written at a later date by Islamic scholars. These scholars disagree- the Sunni hadiths are different to the Shiite hadiths. Some Muslims say that the hadiths must be disregarded altogether.
I believe in free speech, for everyone including Geert Wilders. Although I do have reservations when it comes to hate speech. If people don't like it it is up to them to have the guts to stand up and speak their minds.

To me Tariq Ramadan is a far more intelligent spokesperson for European Muslims, you don't win supporters by denigrating them as evil or idiots; that's the Hirsi Ali way.


Tariq Ramadan vs Ayaan Hirsi Ali


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  #50  
Old 05.06.2011, 07:59
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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1) In your words, would that make Switzerland a "better place"?
No, less Americans would make Switzerland a better place.
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  #51  
Old 05.06.2011, 09:51
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Yeah, cos I wanna hear a whole lot more from these idiots.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html

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....... When we start to limit what someone can say because it is not popular that is a dangerous path...a slippery slope.
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  #52  
Old 05.06.2011, 10:25
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

I was in NL when Ayaan Hirsi was taken by the storm around her person, her past, her lies, her contradictions. She lost credibility in NL when it became known that she lied to get into Europe and was grounted asylum on wrong legal premisses. She left in order to avoid provoquing destiny, the islamists were to get her at some point, she was protected 24/24 by Dutch police for years, the situation could not go on for ever. But she also left before she lost all her credibility, she started fresh in the US in the hope that everybody forgets what started to become public in the NL.

Nevertheless, her positions helped liberating speech and critical sense about cultural differences and the price to pay for letting communities developping her own little world on the side of main stream society. In other words, Dutch society started to wonder what people do with the freedom it gives them. The shock of Theo van Gogh's murder did the rest.

EDIT: and Ramadan's double speech doesn't help either.
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Old 05.06.2011, 13:25
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Yeah, cos I wanna hear a whole lot more from these idiots.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html
Did you watch Louis Theroux's programme when he spent a week with them?

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  #54  
Old 05.06.2011, 15:16
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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A "useful idiot" is someone who,at best, has some theoritcal knowledge about a abominable political system (originally communism, then fascism, and today Islamism) and is willing to support it. Such a person might describe Jihad as peaceful, consider Syria's education system as adequate or even ignore the fact the Egypt is ruled by a military Junta.
(...)
Good example of useful idiot is Nissim Zeev (Knesset MP from Shas) who welcomed and met in Israel a group of extreme-right politicians from germany, sweden and Austria because they share the same "anti-islam" feeling. Most of them stem from parties considered as "pro-nazi".

Read carefully this section in the article (from above link):
For the European politicians, this is a useful alliance, too: many find that support for Israel dovetails nicely with an anti-Islam platform. While anti-Muslim sentiments are wide-spread (more than 50 percent of Germans recently polled said they could imagine voting for an anti-Islamic party), anti-Semitism is no longer considered an acceptable part of political discourse, says Cas Mudde, an expert on European populism at DePauw University. In an interview before his death in a 2008 car crash, Jörg Haider, the longtime leader of the Austrian Freedom Party and Strache’s predecessor, talked of Strache’s plans to use Israel to make the party more respectable. “If the Jews accept us, then we won’t have a problem,” Haider said Strache told him.

PS: i see a lot of similarities between Shas MP discourse and the one of pashosh.
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Old 05.06.2011, 15:53
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Good example of useful idiot is Nissim Zeev (Knesset MP from Shas) who welcomed and met in Israel a group of extreme-right politicians from germany, sweden and Austria because they share the same "anti-islam" feeling. Most of them stem from parties considered as "pro-nazi"
...
PS: i see a lot of similarities between Shas MP discourse and the one of pashosh.
For once, I agree with you - he shouldn't have met these guys, let alone welcome them.

As for Shas discourse - why did you have to ruin a factual post with something you know very little about and, of course, got it wrong. again.
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Old 05.06.2011, 16:27
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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For once, I agree with you - he shouldn't have met these guys, let alone welcome them.

As for Shas discourse - why did you have to ruin a factual post with something you know very little about and, of course, got it wrong. again.
Please enlighten us and tell us on which issues your discourse differs from the Shas.
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  #57  
Old 05.06.2011, 16:50
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Please enlighten us and tell us on which issues your discourse differs from the Shas.
I'm pretty sure Deri & Pinhasi were guilty. I also don't agree with El Hamaayan coriculum. and their policy about summer time. lots of others, but these were the first that came to mind.

Do you think they renewed the "Atara" ? what about their policies with regards to Giyur ? your opinion as an expert about Israeli politics is interesting.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:11
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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I'm pretty sure Deri & Pinhasi were guilty. I also don't agree with El Hamaayan coriculum. and their policy about summer time. lots of others, but these were the first that came to mind.

Do you think they renewed the "Atara" ? what about their policies with regards to Giyur ? your opinion as an expert about Israeli politics is interesting.
Corruption in political parties is not new; there are always blask sheeps (like SVP) and it does not mean that you disagree with the basic ideology of the party. You can always restore the crown of a party to its gold glory.nBut this is way off topic for the thread.

Just noticed that you agree with shas & Wilders on the anti.islam discourse...but like a broken watch the correct match may only happen twice in 24 hours and not always.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:27
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Corruption in political parties is not new; there are always blask sheeps (like SVP) and it does not mean that you disagree with the basic ideology of the party. You can always restore the crown of a party to its gold glory.nBut this is way off topic for the thread.

Just noticed that you agree with shas & Wilders on the anti.islam discourse...but like a broken watch the correct match may only happen twice in 24 hours and not always.
I mentioned "atara", it has nothing to with the Shas's "former glory" as anyone who knows a bit about Israel would tell you - but you insist on parading your ignorance.

As for GW, Shas and "anti-Islam": Political Islam (Islamism) is an abomination. Brought nothing but trouble. Shas voters are mostly people whos families lived in Islamic countries for generations until forced out by Islamic antisemitism. When they have something to say about Islam they have first have experience.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:59
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Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

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Freedom of speech IS the freedom to offend.

It's not the freedom to lie (like denying genocide) or to support racism (NPD).

The threat of violence was enough to suppress free speech, not a good sign.
Denying genocide and letting off racist rants are also form of free speech in my view. The only reason people object to such speech is that it offends and offence alone should not curtail free speech.

The only limits to free speech that I can see a reason for are cases where the speech is likely to cause immediate damage, such as exhorting people to kill.
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