Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 05.06.2011, 20:09
hoppy
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
Did you watch Louis Theroux's programme when he spent a week with them?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is to modern Muslim women, what the Tea Party is to the Republican movement.
I am hooked on Louis Theroux at present. I loved his questioning of Chinese Officials in Africa and he has done a great expose of the Florida mega jails; Jeb Bush's back yard. Jeb Bush may be the next president! the Bush's are not into free speech, which is why he brought in the patriot Act. I would say let Geert Wilders run his mouth, he gets more attention from being controversial- all BS not substance; a bit like the Koran burner in the US. Watch out for corruption charges when he tries to explain what he has done with donations.

To Pashosh I say watch out. This is what Geert Wilders mentor had to say on the Jews. I should have reversed my bastardized poem above- I should have written first Bolkestein came for the Jews and then his protege Geert Wilders came for the Muslims. Racism is sometimes not that discerning; any race other than your own will do:

Quote:
In “Het Verval” (The Decline), a book about Jews in the Netherlands written by Manfred Gerstenfeld, a Holocaust survivor and senior researcher at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Bolkestein is quoted as having said that practicing Jews had no future in the Netherlands, and should emigrate to the US or Israel. Bolkestein's remarks, after having been published in a Dutch newspaper,[10] raised a storm of criticism in December 2010. According to Ronny Naftaniel, head of the Jewish organisation CIDI, this was not the first time Bolkestein has expressed this view.[11]
Wikipedia

Last edited by hoppy; 05.06.2011 at 20:25.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05.06.2011, 20:46
hoppy
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

BBC documentary on Geert Wilders and his financial contributions form Israel.



Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05.06.2011, 21:09
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,200
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
I mentioned "atara", it has nothing to with the Shas's "former glory" as anyone who knows a bit about Israel would tell you - but you insist on parading your ignorance.

As for GW, Shas and "anti-Islam": Political Islam (Islamism) is an abomination. Brought nothing but trouble. Shas voters are mostly people whos families lived in Islamic countries for generations until forced out by Islamic antisemitism. When they have something to say about Islam they have first have experience.
let's assume that my ignorance of israel mirrors your ignorance of arab/muslim world. But there is one big difference: unlike you I have no hate.
What i see is that you have an understanding if not more for Shas racist hate discourse...I wish you could condemn it publicly in this thread like I condemn any terrorist and antisemit action.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05.06.2011, 21:12
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Oooh! Another thread about Israel!

... that's actually about a Dutch politician who isn't allowed to speak in the Wallis...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 05.06.2011, 22:16
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 449
Groaned at 222 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,002 Posts
Pashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisance
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
Denying genocide and letting off racist rants are also form of free speech in my view. The only reason people object to such speech is that it offends and offence alone should not curtail free speech.

The only limits to free speech that I can see a reason for are cases where the speech is likely to cause immediate damage, such as exhorting people to kill.
Denying genocide means denying it's victim's justice and they can no longer defend themselves. Denying genocide means pushing it's victims into oblivion, and thus hastening the next genocide (after all, if we don't remember the victims of former genocides, who will remember the victims of future ones?).

There should be very few exceptions to the rule of free speech. I believe Denying Genocide is one of them.

Quote:
View Post
let's assume that my ignorance of israel mirrors your ignorance of arab/muslim world. But there is one big difference: unlike you I have no hate.
Yet again - wrong assumption.

You have failed to provide facts to negate my claims, where as your claims were very often wrong (Netanayahu supported Hamas, Muslims know only suffering in Israel to name a few obvious ones).

As for hate - I don't know where you took that one from. probably from the same place you took the others.

Shas - I condemn almost everything their leader says, including your quote. What he thinks of non religious jews is even worse...

As you promised to condem "any terrorist and antisemit action" - please do. plenty of those happened recently, yet you remained quiet.
__________________
"I work abroad, you've gone native, he's an expat"

Last edited by Pashosh; 05.06.2011 at 22:31.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05.06.2011, 22:17
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

The far right is no longer as simple as it used to be.

Wilders is supported financially by Israeli settlers, including children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors while talking about the protection of many achievements of the Left Wing, such as gay rights.

Meanwhile Le Pen's daughter is riding on an upswell of support from second and third generation Maghrebian immigrants.

In America, the Tea Party, profiling itself as a bastion of anti liberalism is being bankrolled by the great liberal capitalist institutions such as the oil industry.

The traditional lines of friend and foe on the political map are becoming increasingly thin and contorted, and the left wing's jinglistic responses of the hippy days of the 1960s just aren't providing the answers to today's challenges.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 05.06.2011, 22:28
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 338 Times in 274 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
Denying genocide means denying it's victim's justice and they can no longer defend themselves. Denying genocide means pushing it's victims into oblivion, and thus hastening the next genocide (after all, if we don't remember the victims of former genocides, who will remember the victims of future ones?).

There should be very few exceptions to the rule of free speech. I beleive Denying Genocide is one of them.
I think there is a difference between things that are wrong and things that should be forbidden. It is wrong to draw mean caricatures about other people's holy prophets. It is wrong to make jokes about people in gas chambers. In fact is completely tasteless and anybody who laughed about any of those jokes, even for a second, should hang their head deeply in shame because those things are serious and not material for jokes. But the law cannot ordain good taste (if it could it should also shut down IKEA ). People must bear the responsibility for their own stupidty and anybody with good taste should shun those who go too far. But it's wrong to pass laws to make people shut up. In the case of the Holocaust some of the people who died there actually died because they defended free speech. What memorial to their sacrifice to forbid that same free speech.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 05.06.2011, 22:35
hoppy
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
The far right is no longer as simple as it used to be.

Wilders is supported financially by Israeli settlers, including children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors while talking about the protection of many achievements of the Left Wing, such as gay rights.

Meanwhile Le Pen's daughter is riding on an upswell of support from second and third generation Maghrebian immigrants.

In America, the Tea Party, profiling itself as a bastion of anti liberalism is being bankrolled by the great liberal capitalist institutions such as the oil industry.

The traditional lines of friend and foe on the political map are becoming increasingly thin and contorted, and the left wing's jinglistic responses of the hippy days of the 1960s just aren't providing the answers to today's challenges.
I think that people on the right and left have become to selfish, too Ayn Rand- it's all about 'me'. For instance doesn't Geert Wilder rail against big government while supporting governmental medical, pension and social services to the elderly? OOPS- sorry I wrote Poor not elderly before. He needs the elderly vote.
I find the millennials to be much more considerate to their fellow man. Apart form the thug groups they are so polite and caring.

This is how Pew describes US Millenials but I think that there are similarities with European Millenials. I ma just surprised that they aren't angrier at the generations before them for botching things up. There are fewer jobs for the young and when they do contribute to Soc. Security, pension and 401k, they do it with the knowledge that the system may be bankrupt when they come to draw their share.


http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/1437-2.gif

Last edited by hoppy; 05.06.2011 at 23:06.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 06.06.2011, 00:02
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
Denying genocide means denying it's victim's justice and they can no longer defend themselves. Denying genocide means pushing it's victims into oblivion, and thus hastening the next genocide (after all, if we don't remember the victims of former genocides, who will remember the victims of future ones?).

There should be very few exceptions to the rule of free speech. I believe Denying Genocide is one of them.



Yet again - wrong assumption.

You have failed to provide facts to negate my claims, where as your claims were very often wrong (Netanayahu supported Hamas, Muslims know only suffering in Israel to name a few obvious ones).

As for hate - I don't know where you took that one from. probably from the same place you took the others.

Shas - I condemn almost everything their leader says, including your quote. What he thinks of non religious jews is even worse...

As you promised to condem "any terrorist and antisemit action" - please do. plenty of those happened recently, yet you remained quiet.
BUT the village of Savièse/VS did and does NOT deny the anti-Jewish mass-murder program of Nazi Germany, the village simply did not want to have a radical Neo-Nazi giving a speech in its village

If you feel differently, PROVE that the village did otherwise.

You for sure have found out that the town of Sion/Sitten also refused to have this extremist giving a speech in their town. But also in this case, PROVE that this town denied the mass murder of Jews done by the 1933-45 leadership of the German Empire
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 06.06.2011, 07:15
AmericanGotWorkVisa's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 363
Groaned at 51 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 380 Times in 157 Posts
AmericanGotWorkVisa has slipped a little
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
Did you watch Louis Theroux's programme when he spent a week with them?


LOL, most Americans don't agree with these religious fanatics. They are controversial in America. Remember America is a diverse nation of OVER 300 million. You can find people who live and think extremely different.

The fact is we allow them to speak although it is offensive, for the simple fact that we do not believe in allowing the government to determine "proper speech" when their is no real danger (meaning the person speaking will cause an immediate danger, it is not good enough that someone phones in a bomb threat because they don't like what the person is about to say).

The reason is pretty clear, if the government gets in the business of determining these things it is a slippery slope to potential tyranny. Most think it is better to be offended sometime then to have some "high authority" tell you to shut your mouth when you want to say something that you feel needs saying.

The point is not if Wilder is a bigot. The point is not if what he says is nice or not. None of that really matters. The point is simply "

Please don't turn this into a Jewish/Israel thing.
Funny thing is Jews in Israel do allow NeoNazi groups. Well as long as they don't do anything criminal. LOL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6985808.stm


It sound to me like most of you think it is okay to limit speech because:

1) You personally don't like it
2) You don't trust the public to be able to decide right from wrong in 2011.
3) You think the world is no different from WWII Germany.


One thing I can say is that the World was always different from WWII Germany. We had the same hate speech in America, the same eugenicist, the exact same ideology in many government leaders all over the U.S. (not just the South). We never banned Nazism per se, we never banned Mein Kamf...we never had a law against Holocaust denial...blah blah blah.

And today we have less anti-Semitic attacks on Jews than many Western European countries, we have a half black president (when in my mother's life childhood would be thought to be lunacy)...

Americans didn't be come NeoNazis because people were talking about it. In fact we went the opposite direction DESPITE racist being able to openly speak.

Have more faith in your people to also do what is right.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank AmericanGotWorkVisa for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 06.06.2011, 13:23
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dutch MP Geert Wilders Stopped From Speaking in Wallis

Quote:
View Post
LOL, most Americans don't agree with these religious fanatics. They are controversial in America. Remember America is a diverse nation of OVER 300 million. You can find people who live and think extremely different.

The fact is we allow them to speak although it is offensive, for the simple fact that we do not believe in allowing the government to determine "proper speech" when their is no real danger (meaning the person speaking will cause an immediate danger, it is not good enough that someone phones in a bomb threat because they don't like what the person is about to say).

The reason is pretty clear, if the government gets in the business of determining these things it is a slippery slope to potential tyranny. Most think it is better to be offended sometime then to have some "high authority" tell you to shut your mouth when you want to say something that you feel needs saying.

The point is not if Wilder is a bigot. The point is not if what he says is nice or not. None of that really matters. The point is simply "

Please don't turn this into a Jewish/Israel thing.
Funny thing is Jews in Israel do allow NeoNazi groups. Well as long as they don't do anything criminal. LOL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6985808.stm


It sound to me like most of you think it is okay to limit speech because:

1) You personally don't like it
2) You don't trust the public to be able to decide right from wrong in 2011.
3) You think the world is no different from WWII Germany.


One thing I can say is that the World was always different from WWII Germany. We had the same hate speech in America, the same eugenicist, the exact same ideology in many government leaders all over the U.S. (not just the South). We never banned Nazism per se, we never banned Mein Kamf...we never had a law against Holocaust denial...blah blah blah.

And today we have less anti-Semitic attacks on Jews than many Western European countries, we have a half black president (when in my mother's life childhood would be thought to be lunacy)...

Americans didn't be come NeoNazis because people were talking about it. In fact we went the opposite direction DESPITE racist being able to openly speak.

Have more faith in your people to also do what is right.
Savièse and Sion did NOT fear the speech of that man, what they however feared was to be in the press as the place where the speech took place

He was not banned from any Canton or from the side of the Union, he just was not welcomed by two municipalities.

His CH partner, Mr Freysinger, however is so far to the right that even party-mates of him inside the SVP, distance themselves from that man. And a SVP spokesman made it clear that Mr Freysinger is a party-member but that his opinions do not represent the position of the SVP at all .
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial Durandal International affairs/politics 364 30.06.2011 07:30
[English-speaking] Architect [wanted in Valais/Wallis] swinburne Housing in general 0 28.02.2010 15:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0