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  #61  
Old 10.06.2011, 18:31
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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Given the nature of EF, I am seriously surprised that nobody made a thread yet, this is the main discussion among Swiss and in the media since yesterday:

A 15 yr old girl is in her last year of Realschule and was supposed to start a apprenticeship at her Gemeinde in Freienbach this September. Based on some not so nice facebook comments the girl wrote on her facebook account - on the size of the behind of one of her teachers - did her parents get an invite to the future employer: The Gemeinde decided that they could not trust her and cancelled the apprenticeship contract!

When I was 15, we did not use the Internet yet. I was in Gymnasium in a very rural and many ways "protected" environment: Not much violence or in other ways many issues besides maybe alcohol abuse. Still: We wrote way worse things into each others notebooks and the like. Basically the manual version of facebook. Once a girl got her notebook confiscated and into trouble for some of the stuff in it, but there is no way that somebody would lose a job based on that!

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/24350950

http://www.20min.ch/news/kreuz_und_quer/story/18363739

Facebook, AFAIK is a typically closed network. I cannot simply google the name and see all the posts of the girl. So in short: Somebody rat on her - and the articles mention that it was possibly the older apprentices who didn't like her...
Sounds quite fascistic to me...gives Gestapo vibes all over...
When an "official" "person" gets "offended" then things are taken very seriously, but when a young person is getting cyber-bullyied and commits suicide nobody cares...the world is a pathetic place...

http://www.theinternetpatrol.com/thi...sing-as-child/
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  #62  
Old 10.06.2011, 18:39
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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The 15 year old was going to work as an apprentice for the Gemeinde. Her employers, after asking around about the girl's reputation is general, felt the young girl could not be trusted with all the private data she would see regarding the locals.

Facebook entries are seen by friends, and friends of friends, and so on. Many parents are friends of their children. The entry could have easily seen by many parents in the Freienbach Gemeinde.

I think the Gemeinde made a good decision and were basically covering their own a**es.
I was waiting for one of ya'll to comment on what type of apprenticeship it was / for whom it was, to see if the where / what / who was impacted by such a comment.

Working in a hospital, working with or for the public, I can think of a few jobs where being able to refrain from making rude comments about people would be a desirable trait.

Which brings me to what I was thinking while reading all the comments, in regard to this:
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Well, MC's parts aside, as kids we knew that certain things were permitted as long as nobody found out. Hard to accomplish when broadcasting on the web .
Someone (maybe some few) had made comparisons of FB to writing in notebooks or whatever, the thing is, for many (possibly even "most"), that is not an accurate comparison because many (most) simply do not have their settings that secure.

Also, many people, especially of that age group, use FB friend lists as some sort of popularity tool, they invite ALL of their class mates, so even with some security measures in place, it is as likely as not that the "whole" school can see it.

So, with that in mind, it isn't like writing in some "slam book" notebook that gets passed around privately but rather more like someone had written on a huge sheet and hung it in the town square, complete with signature of the offender. It isn't particularly private, it is more truly a broadcast.

I agree it was a harsh lesson but I happen to think that it has become fairly obvious that some folks need to be "forced" to be more thoughtful about what they broadcast on the internet. Terrible for the girl, perhaps she and her friends will now NOT rank among those writing vile things to and about each other and people they are angry with, jealous about or simply dislike. (If you doubt how necessary it is, check out gamer forums sometime.)

Meanwhile, the first part of Mud's comment has some weight to it as well: The point of the notebooks was that "nobody found out" and this was important because WE ALL KNEW that it really wasn't proper to be speaking to and about other people that way. For years now, I've heard the excuse "it's just the internet" as if somehow that makes it okay to be a vile nasty little bastage and that's simply not true but it is even less true when you take away the anonymity of an avatar and are saying those nasty things in front of "everyone" you and the target know.

When I was a kid, if we got caught being nasty brats, we got our tails beat, in some areas I lived, such beatings were done with a paddle either by the teacher or in the principal's office. So, now, this girl had her butt beat in a more humane way, hopefully it is just as, if not more effective than the outdated physical punishment method.
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  #63  
Old 10.06.2011, 18:43
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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So .before Facebook was ..... erm book.
I don't know if you have an equivalent in other countrys: We got each year some book from the school with a practical layout from a prepared space to fill in your class schedule over a calender in which we were supposed to fill in what homework we got to plenty of pages with all sorts of school laws. By the end of the year it was typically full of "yeah, I'd love to see Mr. X dead as well" and similar comments.

As mentioned before, once a teacher confiscated one from a classmate and read it - which I found back then a complete breach of privacy. it was something close to a diary and the teacher gave many students afterwards an f in "behaviour" based on comments written in there. I wrote much wrose stuff in there than the girl did on facebook, but to be fair was I even back then not dumb enough to sign comments with my real name...

I just think that the side comments and stuff between the lines of the article is important for me:
- the teacher did not find the comments, some students showed them to her. I find that pretty unacceptable. Does the Swiss system support back-stabbing?
- the teacher knows where the girl will work and proactively informs the future employer. I find this again completely inacceptable - it's none of the teachers business where the girl will work after finishing school. on the contrary did her actions financially harm the student. I hope this has repercussions for her.
- the employer questioned the size of the girls friend list and thinks that having 750 contacts on facebook is a sign for being weird.. seriously WTF? "There are rumours that she has bad friends" is an equally rubbish wtf. Maybe they came to the conclusion that they should have taken another student. OK, shit happens. But kicking her out for this is so OTT that I would very carefully watch who got the job in the end? Did somebody have a better relationship with the major or something? If I was the girls dad, I'd be preparing a case with my lawyer by now - but he apparently accepted the case and signed a cancellation of the contract.
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Old 10.06.2011, 18:57
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

Have to say I agree that this girl showed a real contempt for authority she should not have said such a thing about a respectable person who was effectively her direct superior.

This type of thing has been going on for years in the 1930’s a guy called Charlie Chaplin made a film (a so called satire) which insulted a leading German politician of the day. Later it turned out that Charlie was a communist and a pedophile and he had to emigrate to Switzerland - served him right.

A number of people here have mentioned how she was irresponsible in how she used the internet (various comments regarding users setting and that she should be internet savvy). I do hope this is not a suggestion that she should have been smarter and not get caught. No we all agree that it is because this would have meant the comment would have then been in the private domain.

Unfortunately this girl was most likely a facebook addict (with 750 facebook “friends”) and she did not choose her friends wisely – now there is another valuable lesson for her MC. Incidentally the Swiss confederation was forced to block facebook access on its network because of excessive use leading to network congestion. One would hope that if this girl does eventually get a job in a respectable commune she will not be able to use facebook.

Just one last point I work in IT and have had workshops with teenagers about the dangers of the internet. From the class list I managed to find most of them quite easily on facebook before the course and I sent them a friends request for a bogus facebook account I set up with photos of a sexy young ado I found on the net (I am old and going grey), in all the cases with an 90% success rate; they clicked and I was their friend. In the course some of them were angry with me (as well as severly disappointed) when I revealed my true identity. They were also sure I had broken some law and they were wrong again. I imagine they are all in for even harder lessons in the future.

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Old 10.06.2011, 19:07
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

The moral of the story:

  1. Do not use your real name on FB.
  2. Do not be-friend ANYONE related to work on FB
  3. If you must be friends with workmates then open a separate FB account
  4. Check your security settings to "only friends" for all settings.
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:13
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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This type of thing has been going on for years in the 1930’s a guy called Charlie Chaplin made a film (a so called satire) which insulted a leading German politician of the day. Later it turned out that Charlie was a communist and a pedophile and he had to emigrate to Switzerland - served him right.
Seriously: WTF? Chaplin dared to critizise the US authorities and therefore got blamed to be a communist and "un-american" during the McCarthy era. Nothing the US should be proud of or anything that served him right.
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:17
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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Seriously: WTF? Chaplin dared to critizise the US authorities and therefore got blamed to be a communist and "un-american" during the McCarthy era. Nothing the US should be proud of or anything that served him right.
Heheh.. that was the point. Maybe it was a little bit too subtle but read it again.
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:27
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

Charlie Chaps was a bit of a freaking legend. Sure he liked the younger ladies, but that makes him a ephebophile not a pedo. Also back in the day it wasn't quite the 'outrage' it is now. Of course I could be wrong. What has this got to do with FB anyway.
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:32
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

To add to this debate. I remember a guy got sacked because his boss overheard him bitching about him. The guy went all the way to the bundesgericht and they decided the sacking was unlawful as he was having a private chat with co-workers. Unfortunately I can find the link to the judgement I could only find this:

http://saschak.ch/rechte-des-chefs/

Kann der Chef mich kündigen wenn ich mit anderen Mitarbeitern über den Chef lästere?
Nein. Ich bin selber etwas überrascht. Das Lästern unter Mitarbeiter gilt als vertrauliche Kommunikation in der Privatsphäre. Wer allerdings auf öffentlichen Kanälen, wie z.B. Facebook, über den Chef lästert, der darf gekündigt werden. Kein Chef muss sich üble Nachrede gefallen lassen.

Anyway I'm mentioning this because some people are saying that's what you get for insulting your boss etc. Well legally your allowed to insult them as much as you want as long as it is in private. Facebook is seen as a public space so then you can get done for defamation.

For it to be defamation though it has to be false. As some one else said the only way to find that out is to get the box and find out if she fits in
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:40
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

If this shows anything, it's:
  • 0% Freedom of expression
    The kid and everyone have the right to express what they think and it doesn't have to be always nice
  • 0% Privacy respect
    No one authorized the school nor future employer to lookup her FB account, did they have any warrant against her, suspicion of illegal activity, where there any sort of authorities involved.
  • 0% Social encouragement
    Now they just complicated the kid and she won't trust anymore anyone on what she says just to live peacefully and lose any job
  • 100% Total control of the mind of humans
    Yes, it is indeed and it's not funny nor acceptable at all, we're humans and we do have rights to say what we want, professional life is something and personal is something else, the kid didn't break any NDA or violated any policies
  • 100% Creating sort of robotic future employees who obey the rules
    Result of all what's above

Unless the FB comment / post was violation of NDA, National Security or leaking classified information, i would basically consider this as outrageous violation of a human right of free expression.
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:42
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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- the teacher did not find the comments, some students showed them to her. I find that pretty unacceptable. Does the Swiss system support back-stabbing?
That's a joke, right? Did you never go to school? Of course kids "tattle". It's a given part of the teenager ecosystem.

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- the teacher knows where the girl will work and proactively informs the future employer. I find this again completely inacceptable - it's none of the teachers business where the girl will work after finishing school. on the contrary did her actions financially harm the student. I hope this has repercussions for her.
Ok, I agree with this insofar as I don't think the instructor had any business notifying the future employer. But if she had a good relationship with that employer, perhaps she didn't want one bad apple ruining it for other future students she would recommend.

In any case, this little twit of a teenager learned that actions have consequences. It's probably just the first of many lessons she'll have to learn the hard way. Life goes on.


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Unless the FB comment / post was violation of NDA, National Security or leaking classified information, i would basically consider this as outrageous violation of a human right of free expression.
Oh, for crying out loud. She's allowed to express herself. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences.

Last edited by Corbets; 10.06.2011 at 19:48. Reason: Death to the butterflies!
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Old 10.06.2011, 19:49
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The groans i got just proved me right, some people didn't like what i said and i totally respect that and respect their point of view, if i know any of your employers well and your boss is a very good friend of mine, should i have any right to contact them and get you fired for groaning or commenting back at me???....guess the answer is surely not.

We should not accept on others what we do not accept on ourselves

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In any case, this little twit of a teenager learned that actions have consequences. It's probably just the first of many lessons she'll have to learn the hard way. Life goes on.
Lessons is taught of our mistakes not our personal opinions, otherwise this is called dictatorship


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Oh, for crying out loud. She's allowed to express herself. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences.

Saying it again,"consequences" are based of "acts" not personal opinions
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  #73  
Old 10.06.2011, 20:02
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

Maybe the PR people at the Parish Offices where she was going to work got cold feet.
When would her apprenticeship have started? In just a couple of months? If she thinks this behaviour is Ok at fifteen, is she going to change her ideas so completely at sixteen? Who will be held responsible if she lets out confidential information from the parish? The Politically Correct could be in for a field day.

If the parish council are worried that she might not be discreet enough, better now than with burned fingers in three months time.

The lass is still young. Quite a few school-leavers do a 10th school year or a motivation course to see what their leanings are and have a better chance of a good appreciticeship place the following year. It is not really the end of the world for her and let's hope she realises that however unfair she feels she has been treated, there are ways to avoid such situations in the future.
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Old 10.06.2011, 20:10
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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Maybe the PR people at the Parish Offices where she was going to work got cold feet.
When would her apprenticeship have started? In just a couple of months? If she thinks this behaviour is Ok at fifteen, is she going to change her ideas so completely at sixteen? Who will be held responsible if she lets out confidential information from the parish? The Politically Correct could be in for a field day.
Assumption of what is going to happen is not fact, NDA, laws, policies is what controls this, so if her job involved confidential info, they should have made her sign one before she starts, that's it.

What if someone who never made such a comment on a boss before did actually leak classified info in a new job, it is possible and it can happen 50% chances, again it's assumption and it's valid.

We have rules to control unwanted situations in advance, but we are not allowed to abuse rules to screw people's life up cause we're offended of their opinions

The main questions are:

Is there any rules she broke of her school or future employer?
No, she didn't

Does this comply to the Swiss civil code regarding employment?
No it doesn't as she wasn't informed beforehand that this is violation

I'm not supporting the kids comment, but i definitely approve her and everyone else freedom of expression as long as it's not violating any written laws or rules.
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Old 10.06.2011, 20:27
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

OK I'll put it this way. Correct dealings or not, legal or illegal, I don't know. But even if I had a signature confirming correct dealings with confidential info, if I were the person who had given her the contract and I found out she had 750 friends on FB and had written impolite comments about her superior on her page there, I wouldn't sleep very well - and I wouldn't just be worrying about what she would say about me.
I'd worry that she might have a slightly different interpretation of the words private and confidential from mine. I'm not saying it is so, I'd just be worried that it might be my head on the charger if anything went wrong.
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Old 10.06.2011, 20:44
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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OK I'll put it this way. Correct dealings or not, legal or illegal, I don't know. But even if I had a signature confirming correct dealings with confidential info, if I were the person who had given her the contract and I found out she had 750 friends on FB and had written impolite comments about her superior on her page there, I wouldn't sleep very well - and I wouldn't just be worrying about what she would say about me.
I'd worry that she might have a slightly different interpretation of the words private and confidential from mine. I'm not saying it is so, I'd just be worried that it might be my head on the charger if anything went wrong.
Totally agree but then she will have professional and legal action against her, you can't just take legal action (Terminating contract) based on assumption, she had a contract and she was due to start, what she said is not violating any confidentiality, she just said her opinion about someone regardless if this someone is her boss or a man she doesn't know walking in the street, so her future employer committed illegal action of terminating contract
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Old 10.06.2011, 21:23
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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Facebook, AFAIK is a typically closed network. I cannot simply google the name and see all the posts of the girl. So in short: Somebody rat on her - and the articles mention that it was possibly the older apprentices who didn't like her...
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... and I wouldn't just be worrying about what she would say about me...

...And this is why you don't friend people just because you work together. At least not without having more dirt on them than they have on you (e.g. the picture from that one night at that one place where your colleague did that thing with that other person right there on the bar...) It's also why I only make FB postings about anonymous people I don't know and how they were wearing socks with their sandals, supported by pictorial evidence.
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Old 10.06.2011, 21:37
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

I don't know. I have to agree this is over the top in terms of punishment.

When I was 16 I asked my favorite teacher why she was being such a bitch. Ok, it was only in front of about 10 people but still.

I could tell by the look on her face that I had gone over the line & that I hurt her feelings. I still feel bad about it xx years later*. And I learned my lesson.

Seriously, repeating a year at school & losing an apprenticeship for that comment!? Come on. At the end of the day she's only 15. Her boss at the apprenticeship should have had a talk with her & explained to her why it was wrong, made her apologize on FB, etc etc before they let the guillotine drop. Maybe we should all write to them & protest.

(*when i comes up, like now, not every day! )
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Old 10.06.2011, 21:39
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

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I don't know. I have to agree this is over the top in terms of punishment.

When I was 16 I asked my favorite teacher why she was being such a bitch. Ok, it was only in front of about 10 people but still.

I could tell by the look on her face that I had gone over the line & that I hurt her feelings. I still feel bad about it xx years later*. And I learned my lesson.

Seriously, repeating a year at school & losing an apprenticeship for that comment!? Come on. At the end of the day she's only 15. Her boss at the apprenticeship should have had a talk with her & explained to her why it was wrong, made her apologize on FB, etc etc before they let the guillotine drop. Maybe we should all write to them & protest.

(*when i comes up, like now, not every day! )

Perfectly put, totally agree.

I can lead the protest as I'm an Egyptian
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Old 10.06.2011, 21:39
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Re: 15 yr old makes a Facebook comment, loses job...

thats tame compared to what some teenagers post on their/friends wall! i taught alot of teenagers back home and some of the things they would say on fb would seriously shock me!! im only 24 and i felt like a right old lady giving out to them! i had to pull a few aside and advise them on removing some of their pictures and comments, once i explained why they should remove them they understood, and i rarely saw such behaviour from those students again. Young people need to be advised on the consequences no matter how harmless they think they are. I always tried to get this across to the Girls and Boys i taught and thank god they listened to me!
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