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Old 24.06.2011, 18:51
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

As for language and the Balkan-Slang spoken by younger people or teens e.g. from Albania and/or Kosovo, I think it's a means of identification. And thus, their choice, not merely what they suffer from feeling ghetto-ized.
At our institute we were encouraged to participate in a study lately, that wants to examine the german speaking skills of such immigrant groups - encompassing groups of all of the ex-yugoslavian countries (resident in canton Zurich). I have a feel, that people who are being interviewed will precisely have the opportunity to critique whatever went wrong so far in their german language acquiring process.
By the way, I am the only one who recalls that "s'Bescht wos je hets gits" was voted Jugendwort 2009?
So, it might well be that initiatives like these will help adapt tutoring german to those language specific needs. As well as will another project on a federal level: build a termbase for the hospitals in the whole country, so that medic personnel and patients can engage in a dialogue and the needed help of intercultural interpreters is better backed-up.
What I agree is shizo in terms of politics is the fact that english-german or english-french bilingualism is much more welcomed and encouraged at all levels of school besides the multilingualism of the swiss national languages. But languages and varieties of Balkan still can lead to a bit of stigma in our educational system. Sorry, for disgressing on the topic.
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  #42  
Old 24.06.2011, 18:52
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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by the way just remember that to call people 'serbian' is a little off the truth. Kosovo was part of serbia so the 'kosovons' or whatever they are called had or have serbian passports. Funny how most 'serbian' criminals have albanian names. Just a point as I think that people misinterpret the crime statistics and include the serbs in these 'criminals' when in fact they appear to me to be nearly always 'albanian'. Doesnt mean the Albanians are necessarily any more criminal like than other groups but just feel i have to make the point. Thanks
Funny, you wouldn't expect someone with a username like 'chetnik' to be a raving nationalist, would you?
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  #43  
Old 24.06.2011, 19:00
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

Well spoken.

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Swiss got spoiled with the foreigners, Switzerland got one of lowest employment rate in the world, there are no real "ghettos", yes there are "problems" with some groups of foreigners, but swiss themselves failed to integrate foreigners into the swiss society, they just wanted easy and cheap workers without thinking of the consequences...so if SVP has to "blame" somebody, blame it on the market and yourself and leave us foreigners alone...

Many of the x-Yugoslavians escaped from war and misery, yes the younger generation was born here, but their parents went through hell...I don't say that there are any excuse that people commit crime and violence, but I have more understanding if somebody how saw his village got murdered than some spoiled swiss brats from the goldcoast going to germany and beat up people half to death for fun...
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  #44  
Old 24.06.2011, 19:25
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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but I have more understanding if somebody how saw his village got murdered than some spoiled swiss brats from the goldcoast going to germany and beat up people half to death for fun...
Well, please be more comptent. The case you mention fits all the stereotyes as well as the reasons given in the thread:

- While the school is indeed at the goald coast is it far from some private school for rich kids... it is a school for the kids that don't manage a higher education and cannot find a company for an apprenticeship. Kids that already lost in life long before they turn 20. I got to know one kid before from a similar school that my employer accepted as a short term intern - a Serbian who told me that he wrote three times the applications of his classmates in secondary school and while having similar grades never got invited for an interview. He blamed the -ic in his family name and I guess he is not totally wrong doing so. If I was discriminated against like this and can see that my life gets screwed up simply based on my family name, I'd have a lot of aggressions.

- The kids that beat up the people were not called Beat or Regula, but Ivan and Benji...

I do not excuse what they did in any way - but they were a prime example that immigration is not working as great as some pretend. When they are teenager, it is already too late.

But blaming "Yugo kids" for having their own subculture and slang after receiving enough outside pressure and hate is just stupid as well.
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  #45  
Old 24.06.2011, 20:39
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

Lived in serbia for two years. Left my expensive-looking bags opened on one side of the store and went to do groceries in another. Not a dime gone for two years, in country with average income of 400 eur or so. In my first month in Geneva, left my shabby shopping trolley with a sweater inside of Migros, in an area designated for that. In less than an hour, both gone.
Easily 70% of Serbs in Belgrade, where foreign population is scarce, speak English and don't make a fuss out of it. Many also speak German or Russian, also without making much out of it. In Geneva, with 40% of foreigners...
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  #46  
Old 24.06.2011, 20:46
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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Lived in serbia for two years. Left my expensive-looking bags opened on one side of the store and went to do groceries in another. Not a dime gone for two years, in country with average income of 400 eur or so. In my first month in Geneva, left my shabby shopping trolley with a sweater inside of Migros, in an area designated for that. In less than an hour, both gone.
Easily 70% of Serbs in Belgrade, where foreign population is scarce, speak English and don't make a fuss out of it. Many also speak German or Russian, also without making much out of it. In Geneva, with 40% of foreigners...
Welcome to the forum. Please click here to edit your profile and change the location to the nearest Swiss city / town.
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  #47  
Old 24.06.2011, 21:03
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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It is NOT that way. Let's take Switzerland. I recently spoke with an Italian here and we remembered the times when people from Italy (etc) were THE bad immigrants (too loud, lacking discipline, having too dark and too curly hair, laughing too much, not taking things seriously enough). The next ones to become "THE undesirables then were Spaniards and Greeks, replaced by the Tamils, but also they got replaced swiftly by the ex-Yugos.

But go to outlets of Migros and Coop. The "ex-Yugos" very often no longer are at "the bottom" but in charge of "real" jobs. Go into the WEBsite of Coop and checik their outlets for the "Filial-Leiter". Amazing to see how many ex-Yugos can be found !

Sure, you may be correct that any society always needs a "Feindbild" and worse of course is that right-wing parties will always use such things for their programs.

You may refer to the (African) Blacks. But I admire those blacks here around, and there are far more in Glattbrugg by percentage than in Zürich-2 and Adliswil, how well, at least the younger ones, adapt and integrate very well indeed, and are, by most people, nicely accepted. No doubt, I think, each of them had/has to make ugly experiences as racism is one of the worst plagues of mankind. But their ability to adapt is remarkable and needs to be praised.

Look at the Tamils. When they arrived, all the xenophobes and many normally normal people were united against them. But with their friendly ways and their readiness and ability to do good work, they within a few years overcame the hurdles.

Again, a certain heap of xenophobe will always be against whomever was not between the Rhine and the Alps before 1291, but in general, there is reason for optimism in spite of such things.

Yes, thanks for the lecture. I think I may not have made myself clear in my previous post. I agree with you! Of course people from the Balkans or any other group for that matter does not deserve to the bad reputation they have among some Swiss people. My point was just that it is so tiresome that in every country I've lived in (I have lived in six different countries) it's exactly the same thing. Some group is used for scaremongering - exactly like we've been taught at school about the enemy or 'the other' used for nation building etc. I was disappointed to see some posts (written by foreigners in this country I presume - as this is afteral the English Forum), which seemed to buy into this prejudice against people from the Balkans. To those people I say: get it guys, it doesn't matter where we come from we're all here looking for a better life, right?
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  #48  
Old 25.06.2011, 17:11
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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Swiss got spoiled with the foreigners, Switzerland got one of lowest employment rate in the world, there are no real "ghettos", yes there are "problems" with some groups of foreigners, but swiss themselves failed to integrate foreigners into the swiss society, they just wanted easy and cheap workers without thinking of the consequences...so if SVP has to "blame" somebody, blame it on the market and yourself and leave us foreigners alone...

Many of the x-Yugoslavians escaped from war and misery, yes the younger generation was born here, but their parents went through hell...I don't say that there are any excuse that people commit crime and violence, but I have more understanding if somebody how saw his village got murdered than some spoiled swiss brats from the goldcoast going to germany and beat up people half to death for fun...
Many young CH-born "ex-Yugos" grew up in an environment dominated by news like "uncle B got killed ...." "your cousin C got killed ....." "uncle "D" got killed ...." "the house of your grand-uncle E got burnt down...." etc etc etc and here locally had to hear such "wisdom-enriched" phrases like "those Yugo .... blablablabla".

I still remember the time when one of our warehouse-workers from Kosovo decided to do his military service in the Federal Yugoslav army (for a variety of VERY good reasons !) BUT wanted to come back and my boss and me carried through the whole process of getting his allowance to stay in CH extended. With an endless correspondence (first draft by me, corrected + improved by my boss, my 2nd draft issued and then boss " me sitting together changing and improving details), making phonecalls and getting such nice questions "but it is only a Yugo" or "but it only is a warehouse worker" but finally after a few months (Mr K had long started his YU military service) we got the requested approval from the "Fremdenpolizei". Our bitter but humourous conclusion was "they there in YU may have wars and some problems, but CH right here quite clearly also has a kind of "problem" "Boss" on the next "Umtrunk" served me a very special wine from his private cellar !!


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Quote:
Funny, you wouldn't expect someone with a username like 'chetnik' to be a raving nationalist, would you?
Well, look it up under
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks

but, to say it again, those
Slovenians, Serbians, Croatians, Macedonians and Montegrins
who in 1918/20 founded the
Kingdom of the Serbians, Croatians and Slovenes
which later on became South-Slavenia
simply are former Austrians and Turks, so what


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by the way just remember that to call people 'serbian' is a little off the truth. Kosovo was part of serbia so the 'kosovons' or whatever they are called had or have serbian passports. Funny how most 'serbian' criminals have albanian names. Just a point as I think that people misinterpret the crime statistics and include the serbs in these 'criminals' when in fact they appear to me to be nearly always 'albanian'. Doesnt mean the Albanians are necessarily any more criminal like than other groups but just feel i have to make the point. Thanks
Don't get extreme ! You apparently are "Swissified" I simply regard Northern Serbians, Northern and Coastal Croatians and Slovenians as "AUSTRIA-HUNGARIANS" and Southern Serbians, Southern Croatians, Kosovaris, Montegrines and Macedonians as "TURKS"

Last edited by Wollishofener; 25.06.2011 at 17:43.
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  #49  
Old 25.06.2011, 17:23
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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Swiss got spoiled with the foreigners, Switzerland got one of lowest employment rate in the world, there are no real "ghettos", yes there are "problems" with some groups of foreigners, but swiss themselves failed to integrate foreigners into the swiss society, they just wanted easy and cheap workers without thinking of the consequences...so if SVP has to "blame" somebody, blame it on the market and yourself and leave us foreigners alone...

Many of the x-Yugoslavians escaped from war and misery, yes the younger generation was born here, but their parents went through hell...I don't say that there are any excuse that people commit crime and violence, but I have more understanding if somebody how saw his village got murdered than some spoiled swiss brats from the goldcoast going to germany and beat up people half to death for fun...
Wrong AND Right you are ! Most foreigners GOT fully integrated into "Swiss society". Sure, CH just as D/B/NL/SE/N etc wanted workers and got human beings. Wrong, the SVP does NOT want to blame anything on the market, they want to blame Y O U BUT, you wrote about Switzerland first and not about the SVP, so what


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As for language and the Balkan-Slang spoken by younger people or teens e.g. from Albania and/or Kosovo, I think it's a means of identification. And thus, their choice, not merely what they suffer from feeling ghetto-ized.
At our institute we were encouraged to participate in a study lately, that wants to examine the german speaking skills of such immigrant groups - encompassing groups of all of the ex-yugoslavian countries (resident in canton Zurich). I have a feel, that people who are being interviewed will precisely have the opportunity to critique whatever went wrong so far in their german language acquiring process.
By the way, I am the only one who recalls that "s'Bescht wos je hets gits" was voted Jugendwort 2009?
So, it might well be that initiatives like these will help adapt tutoring german to those language specific needs. As well as will another project on a federal level: build a termbase for the hospitals in the whole country, so that medic personnel and patients can engage in a dialogue and the needed help of intercultural interpreters is better backed-up.
What I agree is shizo in terms of politics is the fact that english-german or english-french bilingualism is much more welcomed and encouraged at all levels of school besides the multilingualism of the swiss national languages. But languages and varieties of Balkan still can lead to a bit of stigma in our educational system. Sorry, for disgressing on the topic.
I am sorry but such a "Jugendwort" as the one above will make you a "NON-achiever" almost everywhere. The "normal" way would be "äs Bescht woos jee ghää hät". Such Balkanese expressions are detested by CH-CH but also by the Swiss of "West-Med" origin unilaterally ! English has been an "education language" here in Switzerland for more than 100 years. The two heavy heavy dictionaries English-German/German-English I via mum inherited from Grandfather are dated 1898 ! The books out of the same series but French-German/German-French only a year before, 1897 . You btw. may be aware that the Canton of Bern for centuries was, beside being a member of the CH confederation, in a kind of military alliance with the United Kingdom .....................

Last edited by Wollishofener; 25.06.2011 at 19:34.
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  #50  
Old 25.06.2011, 19:33
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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Yes, thanks for the lecture. I think I may not have made myself clear in my previous post. I agree with you! Of course people from the Balkans or any other group for that matter does not deserve to the bad reputation they have among some Swiss people. My point was just that it is so tiresome that in every country I've lived in (I have lived in six different countries) it's exactly the same thing. Some group is used for scaremongering - exactly like we've been taught at school about the enemy or 'the other' used for nation building etc. I was disappointed to see some posts (written by foreigners in this country I presume - as this is afteral the English Forum), which seemed to buy into this prejudice against people from the Balkans. To those people I say: get it guys, it doesn't matter where we come from we're all here looking for a better life, right?
You could go to live in another six countries and it would be the same in at least four of them. Strange was, when in Fez, a young Moroccan there complained about "those African South Moroccans" while his facial features revealed that at least one of his parents was from the Moroccan Deep South People in Italy north of the Livorno-Perugia-line will complain about those Mezzogiorni (South Italians) as not really Italians but Africans even if their features reveal their own "southern" origins Prejudices are something very difficult to conquer against always
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  #51  
Old 25.06.2011, 23:29
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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I've seen that quoted before, and although I'm not doubting it, I wonder how that stat varies across the country. For example, my daughter is in the PG (Pre-gymnasium) class in CO (Cycle d'orientation ie secondary school). We were talking about her class demographics worked out that a good 1/3 of her class were either foreign or had mixed parentage (Swiss/foreign). In which case, foreign kids are actually over-represented in the top class.

Oh yeah, and 2 of the biggest wee shites in our neighbourhood are both full-on Swiss.
It's not true for Asians (meaning East and Southeast Asians) in America and Canada. They do better than the host populations. But the difference is that most Asians come as students or educated professionals. They didn't come as refugees or poor uneducated immigrants need to clean toilets and clean floors. Africans also do quite well in the UK and AmeriCA (I mean Africans from Africa, not blacks "African Americans" or "Afro-Caribbeans") but here the Africans are mostly poor refugees, at least in the German speaking part. Why? Obviously who comes, how, and why...not so much the ethnicity or race.

So it is the "Type of immigrant" that is at issue, not really immigrants as a whole.

Vietnamese in Germany do quite well for example. Most of the "immigrants" in Switzerland from other Western nations, if their kids grow up here, will do as good or better than the average Swiss.

We should define "immigrant".

Last edited by AmericanGotWorkVisa; 25.06.2011 at 23:52.
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  #52  
Old 25.06.2011, 23:42
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

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Riiight. So why do you think that those "South East Europeans" are so over-represented in the crime statistics? Is it in their genes?

According to the Bundesamt für Statistik are residents from the former Serbien-Montenegro 3.1 times more likely to become criminals than Swiss. Germans like me on the other hand are of course ethically superior to the common Swiss (Helveticus vulgaris) and only have a factor of 0.6!
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausl%C3...C3%A4t#Schweiz

I'd say the fact that mainly well educated Germans with a job prospect come here while the nationalities with the highest crime rate usually translate into a refugee background without a chance for a decent education does play a role. I simply refuse to believe that Nigerians have evil genes that make them six times more likely criminals than Swiss - or ten times more likely than me... and looking at those numbers do I not think that integration is so super here either. It looks more like that Switzerland manages to attract a lot of the "easier to integrate" people while France or Germany were a bit less successful at choosing who they accepted.
i saw a newspaper article awhile ago online, that my fiancee showed me, showing crime rates by nationality/continent, etc. What it did not explain was 'what type of crime".

For example if most Germans are getting in trouble for drugs, most Nigerians for stealing, and most Italians for murder, i don't think people think these crimes are equal (that was only an example not based on any stats).
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  #53  
Old 25.06.2011, 23:49
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Re: South East Europeans in Switzerland

The truth is, apart statistics, most of us know very little about different groups of immigrants. You sometimes read a few (vitriolic) articles here and there, but apart from that, you know very few people, I mean real people, from countries which are not in your sphere of interest.
So, all these discutions are usually useless and endless..
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