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  #61  
Old 30.06.2011, 10:52
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

I really hope people will lose their jobs over this. To summarise someone somewhere thought it would be a good idea to let a violent rapist and murderer who is in jail for life without parole go on a picnic without handcuffs with a woman and another guy who weren’t armed either. I find this very scary. What I find almost even scarier is that the only excuse that the officials have given up to now is that ‘we always do it like this’. Lives have been put at risk by this and now the police have decided to stop the search. Apparently if your able to get out of the immediate area that’s enough to lose the cops!

I share LiB’s skepticism of the law enforcement agencies. Between this, pensioners able to shoot themselves out of a surrounded house, warnings not being passed on to the police before they forcefully evict a gun nut and it taking forever to get phone data of abducted teenies I really question the competence of the authorities who are supposed to keep us safe. Are other countries authorities just as incompetent?
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  #62  
Old 30.06.2011, 11:01
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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I really hope people will lose their jobs over this. To summarise someone somewhere thought it would be a good idea to let a violent rapist and murderer who is in jail for life without parole go on a picnic without handcuffs with a woman and another guy who weren’t armed either. I find this very scary. What I find almost even scarier is that the only excuse that the officials have given up to now is that ‘we always do it like this’. Lives have been put at risk by this and now the police have decided to stop the search. Apparently if your able to get out of the immediate area that’s enough to lose the cops!

I share LiB’s skepticism of the law enforcement agencies. Between this, pensioners able to shoot themselves out of a surrounded house, warnings not being passed on to the police before they forcefully evict a gun nut and it taking forever to get phone data of abducted teenies I really question the competence of the authorities who are supposed to keep us safe. Are other countries authorities just as incompetent?
A very good post I must say. I've highlighted they key sentence. This is the major problem with Switzerland. Back in the 70's it was a great palce to be...and lived up to its reputation....however times have changed and the Swiss are still riding the "we're so friggin awesome" bandwagon from the 70s, that they fail to realize how deep in a slump this country actually is.
I've lived in 7 countries on 3 different continents and Switzerland has by far the most dilettant police force I've ever seen. My prime example...and I've mentioned this on the forum plenty of times. The only place, where I had to physically defend myself was in Aarau...I was attacked next to 2 plainclothed police officers who only indentified themselves as such after I managed to sucessfully defend myself. This is simply unacceptable for a seemingly modern Western country. They need to get their act together before it's too late.
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  #63  
Old 30.06.2011, 11:52
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

What I can't stop wondering about: A child molestor (agreed, he's a celebrity) is being tagged with a GPS device and left in his Chalet in Gstaad, until handed over to the US authorities.
Yet - in the age of GPS-tracking neither the authorities of Neuchâtel or Berne thought it necessary to tag a murderer and rapist?
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  #64  
Old 30.06.2011, 12:11
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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Yet - in the age of GPS-tracking neither the authorities of Neuchâtel or Berne thought it necessary to tag a murderer and rapist?
Ok, just to explain the police view - which was in fact a bit more than "we always do it this way":
- the last time the guy actually got convicted was in 1987 - for twelve years.
- he finished his sentence in 1999 wihout any major problems within the twelve years.

However, the psychological evaluation showed that he was still dangerous and he was put into a lower security "Verwahrung" - a process that should slowly reintegrate him into society. Given that this was twelve years ago - so he has spent twice his sentence locked up, I do not think they were that soft on him after all.

Criminals have rights as well. He finished his sentence of twelve years and another 12 years in low security with said pic-nics and activities to get him used to be free again. I think it was not completely wrong to be surprised that he did something like this after 24 years. In this context does it make sense to me that he does not need to be in a straight jacket with a shot gun pointing at his head all the time... I do not think you can blame the cops that they did not foresee the guy to go wild after being less so for 24 years - if then one has to question the psychological reviews, but I think this is an extremly difficult area where in the end mistakes can happen.
That said must I say that he has done repeatedly terrible crimes, so I would value the right of the public to be safe higher than his personal rights. However, the permanent lock-up was only introduced in Switzerland a couple of years ago and it has to be ordered by a judge. His last conviction was decades before the new law, so he is some freak accident.
The case with the nutter shooting in Biel last year was worse in my opinion. There the cops looked really stupid.
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Old 30.06.2011, 12:28
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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...

That said must I say that he has done repeatedly terrible crimes, so I would value the right of the public to be safe higher than his personal rights. However, the permanent lock-up was only introduced in Switzerland a couple of years ago and it has to be ordered by a judge. His last conviction was decades before the new law, so he is some freak accident.
The case with the nutter shooting in Biel last year was worse in my opinion. There the cops looked really stupid.
Let's just hope for everyones' sake - his included - they catch him soon...
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  #66  
Old 30.06.2011, 12:41
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

For raping twice and killing including a 12 years old kid, he should have been locked for longer and higher security measures should have been put in place, this have been an underestimated conviction in the first place and a proper assessment should have been done by the judge, being Switzerland doesn't mean dangerous criminals can turn into angels at some point (not in 12 nor in 24 years) nor it is acceptable to risk civilians lives cause someone didn't do their job right.

I hope he won't commit more crimes but if he does, will you still insist on your comments?

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Ok, just to explain the police view - which was in fact a bit more than "we always do it this way":
- the last time the guy actually got convicted was in 1987 - for twelve years.
- he finished his sentence in 1999 wihout any major problems within the twelve years.

However, the psychological evaluation showed that he was still dangerous and he was put into a lower security "Verwahrung" - a process that should slowly reintegrate him into society. Given that this was twelve years ago - so he has spent twice his sentence locked up, I do not think they were that soft on him after all.

Criminals have rights as well. He finished his sentence of twelve years and another 12 years in low security with said pic-nics and activities to get him used to be free again. I think it was not completely wrong to be surprised that he did something like this after 24 years. In this context does it make sense to me that he does not need to be in a straight jacket with a shot gun pointing at his head all the time... I do not think you can blame the cops that they did not foresee the guy to go wild after being less so for 24 years - if then one has to question the psychological reviews, but I think this is an extremly difficult area where in the end mistakes can happen.
That said must I say that he has done repeatedly terrible crimes, so I would value the right of the public to be safe higher than his personal rights. However, the permanent lock-up was only introduced in Switzerland a couple of years ago and it has to be ordered by a judge. His last conviction was decades before the new law, so he is some freak accident.
The case with the nutter shooting in Biel last year was worse in my opinion. There the cops looked really stupid.
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  #67  
Old 30.06.2011, 12:59
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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I hope he won't commit more crimes but if he does, will you still insist on your comments?
Yes. Which of my comment is in your eyes wrong?

- He was not released, he was in lower security after behaving better and better for 24 years. He surprised his wards and ran away. Can happen in low security, hence the name.
- 12 years is not low at all for his last crime - a rape, not a murder. He only got a sentence like this because he was a repeated offender.
- If he was trialed today for the same repeated crime, he would probably be locked-up permanently. But it is a fundamental idea of any justice system that the laws of the time of a crime apply and this was not an available option for the judge back then... bad in this individual case, but I hope we don't seriously have to argue that this is in principle a good idea.
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Old 30.06.2011, 14:02
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

Treverus, It’s good of you to try and add some balance to the debate. At the same time though I have to strongly disagree with you. My comment of ‘we always do it this way’ was towards the jail boss who said the guards are never armed during trips. I find that very naïve. Maybe you can do this with drug dealers and fraudsters but with repetitive violent criminals I find it very careless.
I would also interpret the decision of ‘verwahrung’ totally different to you.
As you say he was assumed too dangerous to be let out so he was put on Verwahrung. This was not though to reintegrate him into society. By all accounts he was never getting out of prison because he was simply too great a danger to society. Personally I don’t want even want those kind of psychos out of prison with armed guards let alone unarmed companions. If those kind of people have rights to regularly go for walks without any kind of preventative measures then the laws need to be changed.
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Old 30.06.2011, 14:26
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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Treverus, It’s good of you to try and add some balance to the debate. At the same time though I have to strongly disagree with you. My comment of ‘we always do it this way’ was towards the jail boss who said the guards are never armed during trips. I find that very naïve. Maybe you can do this with drug dealers and fraudsters but with repetitive violent criminals I find it very careless.
I would also interpret the decision of ‘verwahrung’ totally different to you.
As you say he was assumed too dangerous to be let out so he was put on Verwahrung. This was not though to reintegrate him into society. By all accounts he was never getting out of prison because he was simply too great a danger to society. Personally I don’t want even want those kind of psychos out of prison with armed guards let alone unarmed companions. If those kind of people have rights to regularly go for walks without any kind of preventative measures then the laws need to be changed.
It's a bit more complicated, sorry: There are two types of "Verwahrung". One is the open, pic-nic type this guy was in. The other is the new, permanent one judges can order for the life-time of an offender. This gentleman was NOT going to "never come out of prison again" - he was in fact right in the process to do so.

I personally cannot understand either why the guards are unarmed. No excuses for it, really.
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Old 30.06.2011, 14:43
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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It's a bit more complicated, sorry: There are two types of "Verwahrung". One is the open, pic-nic type this guy was in. The other is the new, permanent one judges can order for the life-time of an offender. This gentleman was NOT going to "never come out of prison again" - he was in fact right in the process to do so.

I personally cannot understand either why the guards are unarmed. No excuses for it, really.
Benjamin Brägger, bis Ende 2010 Leiter des Neuenburger Amts für Justizvollzug, will sich nicht zum Fall äussern. «Bei Gefangenen, die keinerlei Aussicht auf eine Haftentlassung haben, machen solche Ausgänge keinen Sinn», sagt Brägger, «man spielt ihnen etwas vor und geht unnötige Risiken ein.» Die Gefährlichkeitskommission des Konkordats Mitte hatte B. als erhöht gefährlich eingestuft. So konnte der Flüchtige nicht mit einer Haftentlassung rechnen.
http://bazonline.ch/panorama/vermisc...story/12685048

Quote:
Benjamin Brägger, former head of the Neuchâtel Department of Court Enforcement, does not wish to comment on the case. "In the case of inmates with no possibility of parole, such excursions make no sense," he says, "it only presents them with an illusion and is an unnecessary risk." The [commission on dangerousness] is said to have designated Mr. B. as 'highly dangerous', rendering the fugitive ineligible for parole.
«Die Gefängnisleitung hat dem Flüchtigen einen begleiteten Ausgang genehmigt, ohne dass wir informiert worden sind», sagt Christian Margot, Vorsteher Abteilung Straf- und Massnahmenvollzug des zuständigen Kantons Bern.................Wir hatten nicht im Sinn, ihm mehr Freiheiten zu lassen», so Margot

Aber Sie sind doch dafür, dass Gefangene Ausgang erhalten.
Ja. Aber nicht ein klassischer, verwahrter Triebtäter wie B. Der wusste doch, dass er nie mehr freikommt und plante deshalb die Flucht lange voraus. Vermutlich gab er sich so lange als Mustergefangener aus und narrte alle, bis er Ausgang bekam. Dass er vor allem geflüchtet ist, um wieder zu vergewaltigen, ist wegen seiner Vorgeschichte äusserst wahrscheinlich.

http://www.20min.ch/news/kreuz_und_q...gang--17370729
Quote:
"The prison administration has allowed the fugitive an accompanied excursion, without informing us about it," says Christian Margot, spokesman for the Department of Legal Enforcement of canton Bern. "We had no intention of allowing him more freedoms."

But you are in favor of excursions for inmates.
Yes. But not a classic, locked-up sex offender like Mr. B. He knew full well that he would never get out, and therefore planned his escape long before. Apparently he passed himself off for so long as a model inmate and fooled everyone, until he was permitted an excursion. It seems highly likely, given his previous history, that he has fled primarily so he can rape again.
Doesn't seem like they were planning to release him anytime soon....or ever....

Last edited by MathNut; 30.06.2011 at 15:10. Reason: Please don't quote chunks of text without providing at least a rough translation. I've done it for you this time.
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  #71  
Old 30.06.2011, 15:00
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

Translation...?
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  #72  
Old 30.06.2011, 15:03
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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Translation...?
Google translate:

Quote:
Benjamin Bragger, until the end of 2010 head of Neuchâtel Office of Corrections, does not want to express to the case. "For prisoners who have no prospect of release from prison, make no sense these outputs," says Bragger, "we played them before and something goes an unnecessary risk." The dangerousness of the Concordat Commission had classified as middle increases as dangerous. This allowed the fugitive does not expect a release from prison.
http://bazonline.ch/panorama/vermisc...story/12685048


"The prison management has approved the fugitive an escorted out, without that we have been informed," says Christian Margot, head of criminal division and enforcement measures of the relevant canton Bern ................. we did not intend to allow him more freedom, "said Margot

But you are sure that prisoners receive output.
Yes. But not a classic, kept as sex offender B. knew that he never comes free and so was planning to flee ahead of time. Presumably, he gave himself out as long as a model prisoner and fooled everyone, until he was let out. That he has fled mainly to rape again, is very likely due to its history.
Basically they stopped searching for the guy and started pointing fingers on each others
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  #73  
Old 30.06.2011, 15:24
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

Thanks mathnut. I translated it but saw you beat me to it
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Old 30.06.2011, 15:27
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

"Commission on Dangerousness"

I really, really want to be on this commission.
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Old 30.06.2011, 15:29
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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Doesn't seem like they were planning to release him anytime soon....or ever....
You have to translate the important parts as well: The guy commenting is not responsible and does not know the case as he works in a different canton. He is only interviewed as the real people who know the case would not talk to 20 mins right now. Rightfully so.

What do you expect them to say now that the guy is on the run? "Yeah, sure, he was doing great and we were planning to release him soon"?
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  #76  
Old 30.06.2011, 15:31
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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Google translate:

Your Google translate is not working properly:


For the following part of the article,


Quote:
Die Fahndung nach dem Flüchtigen läuft derweil weiter auf Hochtouren: Polizisten patrouillieren in der Gegend mit schusssicheren Westen, verteilen Flugblätter an die Bevölkerung und erstellen Strassensperren.

"my" google translate comes up with:



Quote:
The search for the fugitive, meanwhile, continues to run at full speed police patrol in the area with bulletproof vests, hand out leaflets to the population and create roadblocks.
and not with:

Quote:
Basically they stopped searching for the guy(...)
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Old 30.06.2011, 15:57
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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You have to translate the important parts as well: The guy commenting is not responsible and does not know the case as he works in a different canton. He is only interviewed as the real people who know the case would not talk to 20 mins right now. Rightfully so.

What do you expect them to say now that the guy is on the run? "Yeah, sure, he was doing great and we were planning to release him soon"?
The guy responsible from the cantone Berne said they weren't planning to give him any increased freedom.

The question I posted from the same link is from a guy who works for an organisation who helps convicts reintegrate into society and he said he wouldn't even let people like that out.

And yes while the neuchatel guy doesn't have anything to do with the case, at the end of my quote it states that PaddyG's new favourite commision classified him as highly dangerous which means he wouldn't be getting out in the foreseeable future and the neuchatel guy found that society shouldn't be put at risk by such people.

I find these relevant because you claim the aim was to slowly reintegrate him into society. Everyone who has come out to talk have all said there's no way people like that should be let out and there was no way they were going to let him out any time soon.
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Old 30.06.2011, 16:03
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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Your Google translate is not working properly:


For the following part of the article,





"my" google translate comes up with:





and not with:
Might not be in google translate bit that they stopped the search but it's in the tribune de genève today, just reading all full article now
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  #79  
Old 30.06.2011, 16:06
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

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I find these relevant because you claim the aim was to slowly reintegrate him into society. Everyone who has come out to talk have all said there's no way people like that should be let out and there was no way they were going to let him out any time soon.
Well, no. Everyone who came out in the low quality sensationalist tabloids you linked said that. Quality papers have completely different voices:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama...dossier_id=971

The professor for criminal law at the university of Basel explains that this process was absolutely standard: If somebody is in this low security Verwahrung, "ordentliche Verwahrung", he is supposed to have a chance to be let out on probation later on. So these excursions are a standard part to give an inmate the opportunity to proof that he can handle the freedom.

Nobody in his right mind would now step forward and say "yes, we planned to let him out". That would be political suicide.... and most people in those comissions want to get reelected into them.
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Old 30.06.2011, 19:46
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Re: Dangerous Man on the loose

To be honest. I would welcome if they said we thought he was improving and was gonna be let out soon. Then at least we knew a psychologist screwed up.

Here from what I've been reading, including the BaZ he was considered a highly dangerous person. I don't care what status he has, I feel highly dangerous people should not belong on the streets, especially when they knew that he is very violent. They apparently even sent a woman along to help his therapy. The priorities are screwed up. I feel the priority should be to protect the law abiding citizens not to make any primitive beasts feel better.

Here is also some quotes from your high quality media:

Jahre später, wieder auf Hafturlaub, hatte er seine Psychologin, die sich für Hafterleichterungen eingesetzt hatte, vergewaltigt. B. gilt als nicht therapierbar.

Dass B. überhaupt begleitete Ausflüge bewilligt wurden, wird immer unverständlicher. Die Behörden werden auch nach seiner Flucht nicht müde, gegenüber den Medien zu betonen, wie gefährlich der Mann ist. Die Verantwortung für das Debakel übernehmen mag aber niemand.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/15492724

Years later, again on holidays he raped his psychologist who was trying to help get more lenient prison conditions. B. is seen as not treatable.

That B. even got an accompanied trip is becoming even less understandable. The authorities is not becoming tired of telling the media how dangerous the man is. No one wants to take the blame though


Even your paper said he is not treatable. What happened may have been a normal process. My point is it shouldn't be, and it's a massive scandal that it did.

Highly dangerous non-treatable convicts should not be allowed outside of the prison walls period. Be that with armed guns, chains or with woman personnel.

The authorities have needlessly put lives at risk and I hope sincerely hope he is caught before he harms anyone.
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