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Old 25.07.2011, 19:12
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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The Swiss know how to make things better, they dont know how to make from scratch.
Actually I believe the Swiss pump more money per capita into R&D than any other country on the planet.

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It just make sense to me that where there is more high-level research there are more patents.
Nope, where there are more patent lawyers there are more patents. Remember, patents need to be applied for everywhere that you are going to want to enforce one. If you patent something in US, you will still need to patent it in Europe, etc. Sad really. The amount of patents issued does not mean that you innovate more or less, it just means you want to sell more shit in your country.

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If I have no clue then why does the US have 140x the patents PER CAPITA than Switzerland? See chart attached. courtesy of the World Bank.... Switzerland just beat out Kazakhstan.
See above.

Switzerland has one of the highest per capita Nobel Laureates figures in the world, only beaten by Iceland (who only needed one to win the race ) and Luxembourg (also only needing one to come 3rd) and then Sweden in second place....okay I can't see that one being slightly biased? So, I think Switzerland is most probably one of the most innovative places on the planet. Of course if you really want to open the can of worms, ask how easy it is to do business with that innovative idea of yours...lol.
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Old 25.07.2011, 19:13
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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If I have no clue then why does the US have 140x the patents PER CAPITA than Switzerland? See chart attached. courtesy of the World Bank.... Switzerland just beat out Kazakhstan.
Very interesting graph indeed. It says that in 2007 there were around 230,000 patents per inhabitant of the USA. That's almost A QUARTER MILLION!!!! PER HEAD!!!! That means that at least half of the population would have to work for the US Patent and Trademark Office to handle those tens of thousands of applications a day. No wonder they have to outsource all the productive work to China.

Now frankly, do you truly believe the rest of it?
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Old 25.07.2011, 19:40
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Very interesting graph indeed. It says that in 2007 there were around 230,000 patents per inhabitant of the USA. That's almost A QUARTER MILLION!!!! PER HEAD!!!! That means that at least half of the population would have to work for the US Patent and Trademark Office to handle those tens of thousands of applications a day. No wonder they have to outsource all the productive work to China.

Now frankly, do you truly believe the rest of it?
patents per 1million people
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Old 25.07.2011, 19:40
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Very interesting graph indeed. It says that in 2007 there were around 230,000 patents per inhabitant of the USA. That's almost A QUARTER MILLION!!!! PER HEAD!!!!
My biggest question would be around who the hell wrote all those patents? I mean seriously, I only know three or four people that have written and been granted patents. If I can say I know 200 people that means that 2% of the people that I know have written a patent. Now we have some interesting math..... that means that for that per capita figure to be right, either every citizen in the US and their dogs, gold fish and cats are writing patents day or night, or alternatively 2% of the population have written around 20 million patents each....WTF?

According to the World Intellectual Property Organisation and thier little study called International Patent System: An Empirical Analysis, there were by 1998 less than 450 000 patents world wide. I smells a rat in one of these sets of numbers.
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Old 25.07.2011, 19:45
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Actually I believe the Swiss pump more money per capita into R&D than any other country on the planet.


Nope, where there are more patent lawyers there are more patents. Remember, patents need to be applied for everywhere that you are going to want to enforce one. If you patent something in US, you will still need to patent it in Europe, etc. Sad really. The amount of patents issued does not mean that you innovate more or less, it just means you want to sell more shit in your country.


See above.

Switzerland has one of the highest per capita Nobel Laureates figures in the world, only beaten by Iceland (who only needed one to win the race ) and Luxembourg (also only needing one to come 3rd) and then Sweden in second place....okay I can't see that one being slightly biased? So, I think Switzerland is most probably one of the most innovative places on the planet. Of course if you really want to open the can of worms, ask how easy it is to do business with that innovative idea of yours...lol.

The Swiss spend 2.9% of GDP on R&D according to the OECD, while the US spends 2.8%..... But the kicker is that the average Venture Capital investment per capita in Switzerland is $29 per person while it has exceeded $80 per person in the US..... $1,900 per person in just California (all according to Institutional Investor Magazine).....

What do Nobel Laurets have to do with anything? Nobel prizes are given for gaming the system, as every good economist knows. Doesnt mean anything in real life. An art is still and art and a science is still a science. If you believe otherwise you find out the hard way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Te...tal_Management
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Old 25.07.2011, 19:54
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Nope, where there are more patent lawyers there are more patents.

.
There must be a bubble in patent lawyers in Kazakhstan!! ha ha..... Thats why they are making just as many new patents as the Swiss

But needless to say there are way too many lawyers of all stripes in the US.
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  #67  
Old 25.07.2011, 19:56
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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patents per 1million people
Ah, it all starts to make sense now!!! Okay, that is better. So in total about 1 patent per four people making there about 77 million patents in the US? That still does not make any sense at all.
The list of patents per country at Wikipedia may throw some light on the situation:

Patents granted by country (Last data: 2008)
Rank Country No. of Patents Granted
1 Japan 239,338
2 United States 146,871
3 South Korea 79,652
4 Germany 53,752
5 China 48,814
6 France 25,535
7 Russia 22,870
8 Italy 12,789
9 United Kingdom 12,162
10 Switzerland 11,291
11 Netherlands 11,103
12 Canada 8,188
13 Sweden 7,453
14 Finland 4,675
15 Australia 4,386
16 Spain 3,636
17 Belgium 2,948
18 Israel 2,665
19 Denmark 2,347
20 Austria 2,306

And....

Patent applications by country (Last data: 2008)
Rank Country No. of Patent Applications
1 Japan 502,054
2 United States 400,769
3 China 203,481
4 South Korea 172,342
5 Germany 135,748
6 France 47,597
7 United Kingdom 42,296
8 Russia 29,176
9 Switzerland 26,640
10 Netherlands 25,927
11 Italy 21,911
12 Canada 21,330
13 Sweden 17,051
14 Australia 11,230
15 Finland 10,133
16 Israel 9,877
17 Spain 8,277
18 Denmark 7,719
19 Austria 7,711
20 Belgium 7,592

According to my math, Switzerland has 2% of the population of the US, but holds around 7% of the number of patents, therefore actually making Switzerland a number of times richer than the US when it comes to patents per capita.
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Old 25.07.2011, 20:11
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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What do Nobel Laurets have to do with anything? Nobel prizes are given for gaming the system, as every good economist knows.
Seriously???
How did Einstein game the system?
How did Mandela game the system?
How did Martin Luther King Jr. game the system?
And how the hell did Marie Curie game the system?

If you are talking about the economics prize (the last category to be brought in, only in 1969, and I believe one of the Laureates have actually been so embarrassed about the work they won the prize for they have retracted those articles)....he-he, I don't think that has too much to do with how innovative a country has...but you are right, it most probably has a very significant correlation to how many lawyers and venture capitalists (I actually gagged a little when I said that) a country has.

As for the rest of the prizes, the science ones are all pretty important really. Many people that win them are ground breakers in their fields, contributing serious leaps forward to human kind. Think where we would be without Einstein and Marie Curie?

As for good economists........ you must be
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Old 25.07.2011, 20:18
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Seriously???
How did Einstein game the system?
How did Mandela game the system?
How did Martin Luther King Jr. game the system?
And how the hell did Marie Curie game the system?

If you are talking about the economics prize (the last category to be brought in, only in 1969, and I believe one of the Laureates have actually been so embarrassed about the work they won the prize for they have retracted those articles)....he-he, I don't think that has too much to do with how innovative a country has...but you are right, it most probably has a very significant correlation to how many lawyers and venture capitalists (I actually gagged a little when I said that) a country has.

As for the rest of the prizes, the science ones are all pretty important really. Many people that win them are ground breakers in their fields, contributing serious leaps forward to human kind. Think where we would be without Einstein and Marie Curie?

As for good economists........ you must be
Thats right, my venting has more to do with artists, such as economists, getting nobel prizes than actual scientists.

How did Obama get a Nobel Prize?
Or Al Gore (the man who has a carbon foot-print the size of a 747 http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...rld&id=5072659)
Merton? Scholes? Im just saying that these prizes are often political or given to people by default (meaning there isnt anyone else to give them to).

But Einstein wasnt great because he had a Nobel Prize. He would have been just fine without one. He wasnt great because of it...... But thats how people seem to think of the Nobel prize now.....
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Old 25.07.2011, 20:24
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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patents per 1million people
The graph very clearly says Per Capita, which is Latin and means per head. There's no million in that graph. In other words, it's totally flawed, no matter what the source is.

Maybe Jan Hendrik Schön was one of the authors....
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Old 25.07.2011, 20:27
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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The graph very clearly says Per Capita, which is Latin and means per head. There's no million in that graph. In other words, it's totally flawed, no matter what the source is.

Maybe Jan Hendrik Schön was one of the authors....
I made the chart using world bank data. I should have labled it per million
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Old 25.07.2011, 20:28
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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But Einstein wasnt great because he had a Nobel Prize. He would have been just fine without one. He wasnt great because of it...... But thats how people seem to think of the Nobel prize now.....
I think people in the scientific community think quite differently about those prizes. They reward people that have shown that they are great already, they are not there to make people great. Certainly Mandela did not get out of jail and lead South Africa out of Aparthied because he had already got a Nobel Prize.
I do agree with you that the economics, literature and peace prizes can often be very political, as are some of the science ones as well. However, I still view the science ones and many of the others as something to be paid attention to.

My first reaction on meeting a Nobel Laureate is not...oh, you are crap because you have one of those.

Anyhoo, have a look at the article about the global patent situation. It is an interesting read in spots. I think we need to remember that a patent is a device for stopping others using an innovation and is not really in any way linked to innovation in a country, but more to the desire to protect one's commercial interests in the application of an innovation. Recently I have moved to a point of view that I don't really like the idea of this intellectual protectionism.
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Old 25.07.2011, 20:46
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

I see the mighty 101st Fighting Keyboardists have been at it again.
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Old 25.07.2011, 21:20
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I made the chart using world bank data. I should have labled it per million
I'm afraid it's not only that. I cannot see any similarity between the figures in your graph and figures elsewhere. Are your figures patent applications per year, patents granted per year, patents in force (not per year), or what?

The only faint similarity is around 2006 (your labeling of the years is not clear enough to tell which year) the USA had slightly below 200,000 patents "Per Capita" (whatever that means), when in reality in 2007 197,019 patents were granted to the USA, but of course NOT per capita. On the other hand, your graph shows about 1,800 patents "Per Capita" for Switzerland, while, according to my source linked to above, 8,583 patents were granted to Switzerland in the very same year. Absolutely no similarity with reality again.

No matter how I look at your graph, it does not make any sense at all. That's why I suspected co-authorship of Mr. Schön. I'd like to see your source to tell you what you messed up.
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:32
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I'm afraid it's not only that. I cannot see any similarity between the figures in your graph and figures elsewhere. Are your figures patent applications per year, patents granted per year, patents in force (not per year), or what?

The only faint similarity is around 2006 (your labeling of the years is not clear enough to tell which year) the USA had slightly below 200,000 patents "Per Capita" (whatever that means), when in reality in 2007 197,019 patents were granted to the USA, but of course NOT per capita. On the other hand, your graph shows about 1,800 patents "Per Capita" for Switzerland, while, according to my source linked to above, 8,583 patents were granted to Switzerland in the very same year. Absolutely no similarity with reality again.

No matter how I look at your graph, it does not make any sense at all. That's why I suspected co-authorship of Mr. Schön. I'd like to see your source to tell you what you messed up.
I can send over the XLS file, see attached. It was sent to me from a friend at an economics firm on London. They use the data quite a bit for VC funding projections etc. Knock yourself out.....!
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:33
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

hmmmm. wont let me send an xls file? wont attach
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:39
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Anyhoo, have a look at the article about the global patent situation. It is an interesting read in spots. I think we need to remember that a patent is a device for stopping others using an innovation and is not really in any way linked to innovation in a country, but more to the desire to protect one's commercial interests in the application of an innovation. Recently I have moved to a point of view that I don't really like the idea of this intellectual protectionism.
Agree. And thats why I think, as stated earlier in this thread, patent data is a dead number in some ways because all of these wonderful things that DARPA comes up with are not patented because its considered too secret to have public documentation.

The pentagon has more inventions every year than most people realize.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:16
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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patent data is a dead number in some ways because all of these wonderful things that DARPA comes up with are not patented because its considered too secret to have public documentation.

The pentagon has more inventions every year than most people realize.
I have to be honest, that is the most scary thing that I have heard in a long time. This whole, "I won't tell you the secret to x!" bullshit has to stop. Withholding information from people is a sure-fire way to get them all to try and figure it out for themselves, while being really pissed off with you because you did not share, it is base homo sapiens (and even other primates) behaviour. Information is pretty much supposed to be a free resource. It does not cost very much to generate (replicate). When organisations use it against each other there are generally very few victories, except for the lawyers. If DARPA and the UK governments want to conceal loads of technology "secrets" the other people around the world are going to figure it out for themselves very quickly.

Honestly I worry about governments and their use of information technology.

I think you would also be a bit concerned if you knew how many of those "secret" patents held by DARPA are enforsed directly by the criminal justice system in the US.
And how many of those inventions or applications can from experiments carried out at organisations like CERN?
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:20
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I have to be honest, that is the most scary thing that I have heard in a long time. This whole, "I won't tell you the secret to x!" bullshit has to stop. Withholding information from people is a sure-fire way to get them all to try and figure it out for themselves, while being really pissed off with you because you did not share, it is base homo sapiens (and even other primates) behaviour. Information is pretty much supposed to be a free resource. It does not cost very much to generate (replicate). When organisations use it against each other there are generally very few victories, except for the lawyers. If DARPA and the UK governments want to conceal loads of technology "secrets" the other people around the world are going to figure it out for themselves very quickly.

Honestly I worry about governments and their use of information technology.
I agree in a sense. Im no conspiracy theorist but the entire Nicola Tesla thing was very well documented. But still its an unmeasured source of innovation.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:25
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Nicola Tesla.
Now there was a nutcase.
Amazing ideas but horrific about how many of them were completely wrong. One or two were really really good though.
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