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Old 25.07.2011, 23:28
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Now there was a nutcase.
Amazing ideas but horrific about how many of them were completely wrong. One or two were really really good though.
So good the US government impounded all of his writings and documents when he died. They were the basis for modern day DARPA. He basically invented radar.....
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  #82  
Old 25.07.2011, 23:33
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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So good the US government impounded all of his writings and documents when he died.
Thank though that we really know nowdays that just because a government somewhere impounded something has anything in reality to do with its actual value...
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  #83  
Old 26.07.2011, 00:03
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I can send over the XLS file, see attached. It was sent to me from a friend at an economics firm on London. They use the data quite a bit for VC funding projections etc. Knock yourself out.....!
I'm still looking forward to seeing the data. You can eMail them if that works better.

I just wonder how come the World Bank sends XLS files concerning patents to economics firms. If those files are as flawed as your graph, I understand why the World Bank is so efficient in making messes.
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  #84  
Old 26.07.2011, 00:24
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

I was at a party the other day all ex-scientists now patent lawyers and into investments.
they argue about stuff like this to do with the breast and ovarian cancer gene:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/business/30gene.html

It is assumed that this will push this type of research back into the universities. As far as I know this was not discussed at the St Gallen Breast cancer conference http://www.oncoconferences.ch/dynasite.cfm?dsmid=98910, but it would be interesting to know if the outcome has affected breast cancer research in Switzerland.

Hmm! I suppose it is covered ( kind of) in this:

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Recently, there has been worldwide discussion regarding conflict of interest in academic medicine. The Institute of Medicine has issued a major report on conflict of interest in medical care, research and education [1]. Many major academic centers are revising policies that govern interactions between industry and academic hospitals and physicians. Commentaries on conflict of interest generally acknowledge the following key principles.......

5. Conflict of Interest Committee: The leadership of the St. Gallen Conference established a Conflict of Interest Committee und the leadership of Professor Harold Burstein, M.D., Ph.D. (Dana Farber Cancer Center, Boston, MD, USA) to observe and manage conflicts of interest among panel members. The committee reviews and reports the conflicts of interest statements and related information. The committee may recommend to the conference organizers that certain individuals be excluded from the Panel based on potential conflicts of interest that, in the opinion of the committee, might be perceived as impugning the integrity of the St. Gallen Consensus statement.
the conference seems to be governed by companies such as


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COI Statements Faculty SG-BCC 2011
Matti A.
Roche (Speakers Bureau, Consultant), Novartis (Speakers Bureau, Consultant), Pfizer (Speakers Bureau, Consultant), Amgen (Speakers Bureau, Consultant), Genomic Health (Speakers Bureau, Consultant), GSK (Consultant, Research), Genomic Health (Speakers Bureau, Consultant)
http://www.oncoconferences.ch/dynasite.cfm?dsmid=108584

It seems to me that this legal ruling in the US was a 'game-changer' in patent power worldwide.

Last edited by hoppy; 26.07.2011 at 00:58.
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  #85  
Old 26.07.2011, 06:02
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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It seems to me that this legal ruling in the US was a 'game-changer' in patent power worldwide.
I think that things like quantum computing and it's security implications, the fact that corporates own more than governments from last year, the credit crunch, the moneyfication of the third world, cures for prevalent diseases that kill, the pirate party having EU parliamentary seats, Wikileaks, Twitter, the intellectual property debate and at the core, the Internet are the things that are going to be the big game changers.
I think that we will find the US mattering less and less in this world as their power and influence start to settle down to a reasonable level and other cultures catch up. I think that the litigious nature of the US system will be one of the big things to suffer, or at least I hope so.
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Old 26.07.2011, 08:01
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I'm still looking forward to seeing the data. You can eMail them if that works better.

I just wonder how come the World Bank sends XLS files concerning patents to economics firms. If those files are as flawed as your graph, I understand why the World Bank is so efficient in making messes.
PM me your email, and I can send over.
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Old 26.07.2011, 12:23
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I'm still looking forward to seeing the data. You can eMail them if that works better.

I just wonder how come the World Bank sends XLS files concerning patents to economics firms. If those files are as flawed as your graph, I understand why the World Bank is so efficient in making messes.
I work with lots of historical data. Thats part of my job to back test historical cycles and investment themes. As a rule of thumb, the longer the data has been recorded, using the same methodology, the more accurate the relative measurements. This data goes back to 1960, which is very good. I cant argue with it. Its in your inbox so have a crack at it my friend.
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Old 26.07.2011, 19:11
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Thank though that we really know nowdays that just because a government somewhere impounded something has anything in reality to do with its actual value...
OK, I figured out what I was doing wrong with the data. After speaking with the gentleman who sent me the data he informed me that there was a chart already on a different page of the XLS file.

According to the World Bank data (which, according to the Economist Intelligence Unit, is the most comprehensive and accurate source of patent data on the world) the US far exceeds Switzerlands patent applications per capita. Infact so does the UK and New Zealand.......

Please see the amended charts attached.

Anyone who has a problem with this result should feel free to groan the World Bank.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf World Bank Patent Data.pdf (116.1 KB, 192 views)
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  #89  
Old 26.07.2011, 19:55
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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the US far exceeds Switzerlands patent applications per capita. Infact so does the UK and New Zealand......
Patent applications.....now all of a sudden it becomes clear.
Yes, I understand......however if you watched that stupid inventors reality TV show in the US a while ago, you would get a great idea of the actual quality of those applications that are being made. The cost of getting a patent is most probably more expensive in the US than anywhere else in the world due to the legal fees but the rate of actual acceptance is not very high.

The vast majority of patent applications will only ever be that and the first lawyer that actually looks at one will tell the applicant to leave it as that and not to both spending the cash to get it accepted.

To understand this whole thing one really needs to have a read through that report that I posted the link to. As far as I can see, the Swiss are still way ahead per capita on actual accepted and held patents.
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Old 26.07.2011, 19:58
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Patent applications.....now all of a sudden it becomes clear.
Yes, I understand......however if you watched that stupid inventors reality TV show in the US a while ago, you would get a great idea of the actual quality of those applications that are being made. The cost of getting a patent is most probably more expensive in the US than anywhere else in the world due to the legal fees but the rate of actual acceptance is not very high.

The vast majority of patent applications will only ever be that and the first lawyer that actually looks at one will tell the applicant to leave it as that and not to both spending the cash to get it accepted.

To understand this whole thing one really needs to have a read through that report that I posted the link to. As far as I can see, the Swiss are still way ahead per capita on actual accepted and held patents.
But its still a sign of innovation and creativity. Name one Swiss invention in the last 40 years that has rivaled the internet?????
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Old 26.07.2011, 21:02
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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the rate of actual acceptance is not very high.
do you have any data to support that contention? or is that a belief? ever hear of patent trolling in the US and how the number of patents has exploded since the advent of wide-spread internet usage? this might enlighten you

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...patents-attack
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Old 26.07.2011, 22:02
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I think that things like quantum computing and it's security implications, the fact that corporates own more than governments from last year, the credit crunch, the moneyfication of the third world, cures for prevalent diseases that kill, the pirate party having EU parliamentary seats, Wikileaks, Twitter, the intellectual property debate and at the core, the Internet are the things that are going to be the big game changers.
I think that we will find the US mattering less and less in this world as their power and influence start to settle down to a reasonable level and other cultures catch up. I think that the litigious nature of the US system will be one of the big things to suffer, or at least I hope so.
the US will always be a world leader as long as they remain at the forefront of research.
I still think that the legalities of patenting human genes is far more important than any of the above you can patent what nature created, if you did then people can be patented and it is people who have invented or caused all of the above that you mention!

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The case could have far-reaching implications. About 20 percent of human genes have been patented, and multibillion-dollar industries have been built atop the intellectual property rights that the patents grant.

“If a decision like this were upheld, it would have a pretty significant impact on the future of medicine,”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/business/30gene.html

How does it feel to know that 20% of your body has been patented?
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Old 26.07.2011, 22:20
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

There is a backlog of patents waiting to be granted. Many scientists seem to put up with the backlog, but they are extremely concerned about being the first to file. The American Invents Act is receiving lot of backlash.

http://www.americainventsact2011.org/


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Gurry also raises the ongoing problem of patent trolls. “These are people who basically buy inventions — not to work them or manufacture with them, but to sue other people. This is an abuse of the litigation system,” he says.
“It a peculiarly a US problem, but it affects everybody because everyone wants to be in the American market.
“If you are in the US market, you are subject to that possibility of being sued, and litigation in the US is extremely expensive. The estimate of the IPO Association is that it costs up to US25 million to defend a patent suit. If you are a small to medium enterprise, that is a disaster.”
Gurry says trolls buy a patent from another company, together with its intellectual assets, and build patents into a portfolio. “Then, when they see anyone using that technology, they sue you.”
Gurry says it is difficult to quantify the economic output associated with IP. The one measure often used is the total of royalties a country receives for the use of its patents.
Gurry says WIPO has always been a technical agency, but has now assumed more importance simply because of the increased knowledge content of production.
http://www.asiatoday.com.au/feature_reports.php?id=517
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Old 27.07.2011, 02:11
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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According to the World Bank data (which, according to the Economist Intelligence Unit, is the most comprehensive and accurate source of patent data on the world) the US far exceeds Switzerlands patent applications per capita. In fact so does the UK and New Zealand.......
Your graph had me completely flummoxed for a while. I checked the worldwide filing figures (see here), and I checked the European filing figures (see here). Then I looked at the USPTO statistics (see here) and I finally worked out that your graph only shows the figures for US patent applications. So when it says "Swiss patents", what it means is "US patent applications filed by Swiss companies".

The graph completely ignores all the worldwide (PCT) applications filed by Swiss companies, designating the US, which is the way most non-US companies apply for US patents. The reason that the numbers of "Swiss patents" seems to have decreased since the sixties is simply because companies have been changing over from direct US applications to worldwide (PCT) applications.

So the graph doesn't tell us anything at all about the relative level of innovation in US and CH.
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Old 27.07.2011, 04:00
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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But its still a sign of innovation and creativity. Name one Swiss invention in the last 40 years that has rivaled the internet?????
Zuger, that was a really "shoot yourself in the foot” one!

The Internet or The Web or Web 2.0, etc., not, as you call it "the internet", as it is singular, the one and the only and thus deserves the correct levels of respect, was not invented anywhere, it is an build-up of a number of different inventions that have been strung together to build this thing that we now call The Internet. A significant amount of the initial conceptual network design came from Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn in the US but…

Fairly significant portions were developed here in this very little "Inconvenient Alpine Democracy” (as the Americans like to call it according to the Wikileaks), in a very insignificant little research organisation called CERN. I know very few people have ever heard of it. In fact the man that invented the “World Wide Web”, Tim Berners-Lee was working there at the time, so bless, yes, the U.S.A. may be able to lay claim to the infrastructure but the thing that actually engaged people with the infrastructure, the content framework is Swiss.

The other interesting things that the Swiss lay claim to are:
  • Milk Chocolate: Not as important as the Internet you say. I say tell that to your girlfriend the next time she has a bit of PMS and wants her fix. I think you will find if you tell her that the Internet is more important at that stage, your eyes will be opened, albeit with tears of pain in them.
  • The Tunnelling Scanning Microscope: This actually netted the guys that did the work one of those prizes that you put no stock in. Without this device many of our current technical breakthroughs would not be possible at all. Arguably in many ways, as important as TCP/IP.
  • Banking Secrecy: Very, if not quite as important, to me and many other people due to the fact that we don’t trust governments.
I still stand by my point though that a patent is a device that is used to protect the production of an idea, not the protection or actual generation of that idea itself. So, no, I am not willing to accept at all that a patent or the number of patents issued or applied for are any sign of a creative nation.

The Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property has a great page to read about patents in Switzerland and indeed general patent principles. I would strongly suggest a read through.

If you honestly want to claim that the U.S.A. is the most creative and amazing nation on the planet, then you are welcome to it but I am going to just have to disagree.
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Old 27.07.2011, 04:01
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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do you have any data to support that contention?
Just have a look at the figures in one of my previous posts to see some of the supporting numbers.
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Old 27.07.2011, 04:02
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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How does it feel to know that 20% of your body has been patented?
I am not sure these idiots worry me.
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Old 27.07.2011, 07:11
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

When patents attack!

NPR radio program and article:

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Technology companies pay Intellectual Ventures fees ranging "from tens of thousands to the millions and millions of dollars ... to buy themselves insurance that protects them from being sued by any harmful, malevolent outsiders," Sacca says.

There's an implication in IV's pitch, Sacca says: If you don't join us, who knows what'll happen?

He says it reminds him of "a mafia-style shakedown, where someone comes in the front door of your building and says, 'It would be a shame if this place burnt down. I know the neighborhood really well and I can make sure that doesn't happen.' "

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/...patents-attack
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Old 27.07.2011, 07:45
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

Is this the world's most pointless discussion at the moment, or what? People will be, on average, creative. The law of large numbers dictates that there will be roughly the same percentage of 'creative' people (however you want to measure that) in a population. What will matter are the structural impediments to bringing an idea to market. No one doubts that the Chinese are pretty creative, but I'm sure they aren't too worried about holding patents.

FWIW, TBL was a Brit working at CERN as an independent contractor. Seems a little odd to be co-opting someone from another country into your argument about Swiss creativity. The idea of a hypertext markup language had been around for quite some time.
He could have "invented" it anywhere, he just happened to be at CERN as some sort of do-it-yourself postdoc. And notice...he didn't stay in Switzerland.

Last edited by phdoofus; 27.07.2011 at 08:36.
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Old 27.07.2011, 08:42
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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But its still a sign of innovation and creativity. Name one Swiss invention in the last 40 years that has rivaled the internet?????
The internet.
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