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  #101  
Old 27.07.2011, 09:52
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Is this the world's most pointless discussion at the moment, or what? People will be, on average, creative. The law of large numbers dictates that there will be roughly the same percentage of 'creative' people (however you want to measure that) in a population. What will matter are the structural impediments to bringing an idea to market. No one doubts that the Chinese are pretty creative, but I'm sure they aren't too worried about holding patents.
Not really, no. Creativity is a culturally enforced or suppressed way of thinking. In China they like to "hammer down the nail that stands out", and it's been quite a while since some countries or regions of the world have made any notable invention. In fact there is nothing that suggests that people on average are creative, we as humans have managed centuries without really being innovative at all.
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  #102  
Old 27.07.2011, 09:56
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Your graph had me completely flummoxed for a while. I checked the worldwide filing figures (see here), and I checked the European filing figures (see here). Then I looked at the USPTO statistics (see here) and I finally worked out that your graph only shows the figures for US patent applications. So when it says "Swiss patents", what it means is "US patent applications filed by Swiss companies".

The graph completely ignores all the worldwide (PCT) applications filed by Swiss companies, designating the US, which is the way most non-US companies apply for US patents. The reason that the numbers of "Swiss patents" seems to have decreased since the sixties is simply because companies have been changing over from direct US applications to worldwide (PCT) applications.

So the graph doesn't tell us anything at all about the relative level of innovation in US and CH.
Thank you very much Jern. I was waiting for you to have a look at it because those figures kept puzzling me even after Zuger sent me the entire table he had used for designing that graph and even after he had amended his original graph. I said to myself, "For Pete's sake, where is that patent guy when we urgently need him?" I knew for sure something was wrong, without any ill intent on Zuger's side, mind you.

Now what would the really relevant figures look like?
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  #103  
Old 27.07.2011, 09:57
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Not really, no. Creativity is a culturally enforced or suppressed way of thinking. In China they like to "hammer down the nail that stands out", and it's been quite a while since some countries or regions of the world have made any notable invention. In fact there is nothing that suggests that people on average are creative, we as humans have managed centuries without really being innovative at all.
Apparently, pessimism is alive and well in Switzerland.
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  #104  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:10
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Zuger, that was a really "shoot yourself in the foot” one!

The Internet or The Web or Web 2.0, etc., not, as you call it "the internet", as it is singular, the one and the only and thus deserves the correct levels of respect, was not invented anywhere, it is an build-up of a number of different inventions that have been strung together to build this thing that we now call The Internet. A significant amount of the initial conceptual network design came from Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn in the US but…

Fairly significant portions were developed here in this very little "Inconvenient Alpine Democracy” (as the Americans like to call it according to the Wikileaks), in a very insignificant little research organisation called CERN. I know very few people have ever heard of it. In fact the man that invented the “World Wide Web”, Tim Berners-Lee was working there at the time, so bless, yes, the U.S.A. may be able to lay claim to the infrastructure but the thing that actually engaged people with the infrastructure, the content framework is Swiss.

The other interesting things that the Swiss lay claim to are:
  • Milk Chocolate: Not as important as the Internet you say. I say tell that to your girlfriend the next time she has a bit of PMS and wants her fix. I think you will find if you tell her that the Internet is more important at that stage, your eyes will be opened, albeit with tears of pain in them.
  • The Tunnelling Scanning Microscope: This actually netted the guys that did the work one of those prizes that you put no stock in. Without this device many of our current technical breakthroughs would not be possible at all. Arguably in many ways, as important as TCP/IP.
  • Banking Secrecy: Very, if not quite as important, to me and many other people due to the fact that we don’t trust governments.
I still stand by my point though that a patent is a device that is used to protect the production of an idea, not the protection or actual generation of that idea itself. So, no, I am not willing to accept at all that a patent or the number of patents issued or applied for are any sign of a creative nation.

The Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property has a great page to read about patents in Switzerland and indeed general patent principles. I would strongly suggest a read through.

If you honestly want to claim that the U.S.A. is the most creative and amazing nation on the planet, then you are welcome to it but I am going to just have to disagree.
Then why is the US considered the most innovative country in the world? Ive never heard anyone use that term to describe Switzerland. Im sorry but in all of the years Ive lived here I have not met one person who was so passionate about what they were inventing that they had to try and explain it to people. In both Detroit and San Francisco I typically met people on a weekly basis at coffee shops and libraries who were working on some new invention.

Obviously Switzerland has innovation and creativity, as do all places in the world. But Its not as large scale here as Ive seen it in the US. Most of you who groan at this likely work in a large industrial firm that has big R&D expenditures. So youre comparing watermelons with oranges (i.e. an alkaline with an acid). You guys arent the average Swiss person.

But I find it amazing that the Swiss are just as biassed as the Americans. If the patent data says that the Swiss have the most patents then the data is valid. If it says the US has more the data is flawed??????? Thats the most fascist thing Ive ever heard. Ive met more inventors in Germany than I have in Switzerland. Thats just a fact. When VC funds go looking for the worlds next great invention they go to Japan, The US, and Germany first.....

This crowd is clearly biased.

P.S. the first milk chocolate was invented by Hans Sloane in 1689.... IN JAMAICA. Thats common knowledge amongst the agricultural traders here in Switzerland who have to constantly correct Swiss people who think it was Lindt.
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  #105  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:12
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Now what would the really relevant figures look like?
Thats the question that is impossible to answer Im afraid. No matter what the answer is no one here would agree me thinks.
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  #106  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:28
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/calmar/...4339/lightbox/
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  #107  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:34
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

And by education?

Eighty-six of the Top 400 Universities worldwide, or 22 percent, are in the United States. The United Kingdom comes in second place with 47 universities, or 12 percent of the worldwide total. Germany was third with 36 universities, or 9 percent; Australia was fourth with 22 universities, or 6 percent; and France and Canada were both tied for fifth place with 17 universities each (4 percent); Japan came in seventh with 15 universities (4 percent); Netherlands finished eighth with 12 (3 percent); South Korea is in ninth place with 11 (3 percent); Sweden, China, and Switzerland are tied for 10th place with 8 colleges each (2 percent each) of the rankings. These top 12 countries accounted for 72 percent of the top 400. In total, there are schools from 45 different countries represented on the Top 400 list.
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  #108  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:43
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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But I find it amazing that the Swiss are just as biassed as the Americans. If the patent data says that the Swiss have the most patents then the data is valid. If it says the US has more the data is flawed??????? Thats the most fascist thing Ive ever heard. Ive met more inventors in Germany than I have in Switzerland. Thats just a fact.

When VC funds go looking for the worlds next great invention they go to Japan, The US, and Germany first.....
Facts eh? Is you meeting inventors even more factsy than independant data, independant panels, Insead, patent offices, Nobel prices, actual inventions, technology leadership, exports?
I like your views on other topics but you're way off here.
Are you seriously trying to somehow tell us that loonies trying to sell you their inventions in a café is a good indicator of innovation in a country?
I'm afraid there are better indicators than that, in all of which Switzerland ranks among the most, if not the most innovative country in the world (relative to its size of course!!)
And Switzerland may or may not have the highest patents per capita, it's one of the worst indicators of innovation anyway, as innovation is not a mandatory requirement for a patent at all (as you surely know yourself).
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Old 27.07.2011, 13:59
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Facts eh? Is you meeting inventors even more factsy than independant data, independant panels, Insead, patent offices, Nobel prices, actual inventions, technology leadership, exports?
I like your views on other topics but you're way off here.
Are you seriously trying to somehow tell us that loonies trying to sell you their inventions in a café is a good indicator of innovation in a country?
I'm afraid there are better indicators than that, in all of which Switzerland ranks among the most, if not the most innovative country in the world (relative to its size of course!!)
And Switzerland may or may not have the highest patents per capita, it's one of the worst indicators of innovation anyway, as innovation is not a mandatory requirement for a patent at all (as you surely know yourself).
The two most important variables to innovation and creativity are 1). Passion about new things and the industry you are trying to exploit (You cant argue against that). I have yet to meet a passionate Swiss inventor. Im sorry (not to say they dont exist). 2) a large 15 to 35 year old population. Thats who invents, creates, and innovates. Thats a fact. Dont believe me? Then have a stab at the Harry Dent books on demographic creativity.

Im certainly not saying that Swiss arent creative. But Im bringing up the fact that there is no real way to measure creativity. Where I am from your invention is shiit unless it makes money (forget helping humanity). Here in CH there are very few Swiss people with family offices (An Office that invests the billions that an individual has made off of an invention). They are mostly French, German, UK, Austrian, Spanish etc inventors. In other words there arent that many modern day Swiss who have made billions on their inventions (maybe Swatch is the exception?)...

So what is the metric? I just find it funny the there is none, yet people groan each other if they question some ones view on Swiss creativity relative to the rest of the world.

So since there is no metric I try and use some comparisons. Such has how passionate people seem to be. Im sure there are passionate people in this thread and thats why they find time to make arguments about this kind of thing. But I have yet to meet any of my Swiss neighbors who have a laboratory in their house. Thats just awkward. Everyone on SF has his own "Work-shop".... So yes, my theories mught be flawed but Im simply going off of personal experience.
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  #110  
Old 27.07.2011, 13:59
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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And by education?

Eighty-six of the Top 400 Universities worldwide, or 22 percent, are in the United States. The United Kingdom comes in second place with 47 universities, or 12 percent of the worldwide total. Germany was third with 36 universities, or 9 percent; Australia was fourth with 22 universities, or 6 percent; and France and Canada were both tied for fifth place with 17 universities each (4 percent); Japan came in seventh with 15 universities (4 percent); Netherlands finished eighth with 12 (3 percent); South Korea is in ninth place with 11 (3 percent); Sweden, China, and Switzerland are tied for 10th place with 8 colleges each (2 percent each) of the rankings. These top 12 countries accounted for 72 percent of the top 400. In total, there are schools from 45 different countries represented on the Top 400 list.
Come on, that's again figures that cannot be compared. We both know that in the USA every one-horse town has a college or university. Where there are many colleges, there also are some good ones. Those rankings do not assess the number of graduations in fields that really matter. They just count institutions and their (subjective) quality.

For instance, Michigan (slightly below 10 million inhabitants) has 121 colleges and universities. A few of them are absolutely great, the rest wouldn't even go through as vocational schools in Switzerland, let alone on an academic level. I know what I'm talking about.
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  #111  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:08
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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The two most important variables to innovation and creativity are 1). Passion about new things and the industry you are trying to exploit (You cant argue against that). I have yet to meet a passionate Swiss inventor.
I think that's just your own perspective completely devoid of any factual basis. I wouldn't know why passion is a prerequisite of innovation, so yes I do argue against that. Can be, but unless proven otherwise I will dismiss it as wishful thinking à la "you can't have a family without love".
As for the rest, I just think you don't know Switzerland very well, you mix subjective opinions with stereotypes and think it's more valid than objective, observeable facts. And fact is that Switzerland makes tons of money off its innovations, in fact in can ONLY make money by being innovative, it's just too bloody expensive for anything else. As for meeting inventors... well, nowadays they rarely look like this anymore I'm afraid, so you wouldn't notice them in the tram.

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  #112  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:10
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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For instance, Michigan (slightly below 10 million inhabitants) has 121 colleges and universities. A few of them are absolutely great, the rest wouldn't even go through as vocational schools in Switzerland, let alone on an academic level. I know what I'm talking about.
But Americans say the same thing about Switzerland. I know an HR recruiter for Google who said that 95% of all universities in Europe were "Below Junior College Level"..... People always question why Swiss kids only go to highschool until 16, rather than 18..... Is that high quality?

Again, Im merely making the point that there is no perfect metric. Every metric used can be labeled as biased.
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Old 27.07.2011, 14:12
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I think that's just your own perspective completely devoid of any factual basis. I wouldn't know why passion is a prerequisite of innovation, so yes I do argue against that.
Ask anyone here who works in R&D if he is passionate about his work and he will answer yes.
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  #114  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:22
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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But Americans say the same thing about Switzerland. I know an HR recruiter for Google who said that 95% of all universities in Europe were "Below Junior College Level"..... People always question why Swiss kids only go to highschool until 16, rather than 18..... Is that high quality?
Do "people" know their figures?

Primary school 4-5 years. Middle School 3-4 years. High School 4 years.

Unless you start primary at 4, no way you get your Matura / Baccalaureate / whatever you call it at 16.
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Old 27.07.2011, 14:30
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Do "people" know their figures?

Primary school 4-5 years. Middle School 3-4 years. High School 4 years.

Unless you start primary at 4, no way you get your Matura / Baccalaureate / whatever you call it at 16.
All three of our nannys kids graduated at 16, as did my wifes ex-husband (who was Swiss). Infact, my banker in Zurich has "been in the banking world for 20 years". He is 36.... That math adds up to the same.

Every year at University we would start out with 20 European kids on the first day of class (Germans, French, Swiss etc etc..) By the third week we would be left with 3 or 4 because they didnt full-fill the educational requirements of the University (their highschool diplomas werent up to par). And to be honest with you, I didnt exactly attend Princeton if you know what I mean.

Does it mean they were dumb? Nope! Did it mean that the US college system felt they werent ready for college? Yup..... But thats the perception.
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Old 27.07.2011, 14:34
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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The Cuckoo clock was invented from scratch btw lol
The Cuckoo clock wasn't invented in Switzerland. It's from Germany. It has a long tradition in Schonach. However, there are quite a lot of premium watch manufactures which invented from scratch.

Furthermore innovation has a lot to do with economical, political, sociocultural, legal and technological factors. Switzerland understands it to adjust this factors in a way that innovation can flourish.
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Old 27.07.2011, 14:37
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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All three of our nannys kids graduated at 16, as did my wifes ex-husband (who was Swiss).
Graduated what? High school? Pardon me, but I don't see how that would be possible, considering you can only start primary at age 6. You maybe can graduate at 16 if by exception you start at 5, and go to one of the lesser schools, but definitely not high school. Unless your definition of highschool is different from mine?

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Infact, my banker in Zurich has "been in the banking world for 20 years". He is 36.... That math adds up to the same.
Newsflash - you can get into a banking world by doing a commercial apprenticeship instead of going to high-school (ask Marcel Ospel). So no surprise he started at 16 which is around when most apprenticeships start. Ask for his high school diploma next time he offers you a structured product.

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Every year at University we would start out with 20 European kids on the first day of class (Germans, French, Swiss etc etc..) By the third week we would be left with 3 or 4 because they didnt full-fill the educational requirements of the University (their highschool diplomas werent up to par). And to be honest with you, I didnt exactly attend Princeton if you know what I mean.

Does it mean they were dumb? Nope! Did it mean that the US college system felt they werent ready for college? Yup..... But thats the perception.
Yeah, I'm sure comparing someone who went from day 1 through the american system with someone who did not plus is not of English mother tongue is comparing apples and apples.

I'm sure I can remember a lot of them low-quality furners flunking Geneva U as well.
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  #118  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:39
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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All three of our nannys kids graduated at 16, as did my wifes ex-husband (who was Swiss). Infact, my banker in Zurich has "been in the banking world for 20 years". He is 36.... That math adds up to the same.
Think you're mixing up a few things here.
1-15 primary & secondary school
15-18 high school or vocational school/apprenticeship (Gymnasium/Lehre)
18+ University/college
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Old 27.07.2011, 14:44
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Think you're mixing up a few things here.
1-15 primary & secondary school
15-18 high school or vocational school/apprenticeship (Gymnasium/Lehre)
18+ University/college
Right, vocational school apprenticeship is the same as a GED in the US..... Its what you want to do when you grow up. Like being a Lehrling. In the US thats not considered highschool.
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Old 27.07.2011, 14:49
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Graduated what? High school? Pardon me, but I don't see how that would be possible, considering you can only start primary at age 6. You maybe can graduate at 16 if by exception you start at 5, and go to one of the lesser schools, but definitely not high school. Unless your definition of highschool is different from mine?



Newsflash - you can get into a banking world by doing a commercial apprenticeship instead of going to high-school (ask Marcel Ospel). So no surprise he started at 16 which is around when most apprenticeships start. Ask for his high school diploma next time he offers you a structured product.



Yeah, I'm sure comparing someone who went from day 1 through the american system with someone who did not plus is not of English mother tongue is comparing apples and apples.

I'm sure I can remember a lot of them low-quality furners flunking Geneva U as well.
???? Are you making a point? I cant tell if youre agreeing with me (apprenticeship is not highschool) or arguing something (Some one who went to an apprenticeship for for banking rather than finish highschool will get sent to a JC in the US.)

By US standards our definition of highschool does infact differ. If you dont finish highschool and then get a GED you will be stuck in Detroit, riveting car doors, for the rest of your days (or until the Union loses power). But will you get into Harvard? No sir.
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