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  #141  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:50
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Now I'm completely lost.

Are you just trolling or trying to have a serious discussion about innovation.

I just can't follow the logic to this statement:
we were discussing how to measure creativity. some one suggested money. My point was that just because something makes lots of money doesnt mean it helps humanity or is creative. You should read the entire thread.
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  #142  
Old 27.07.2011, 14:56
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Youre a big boy. If you want to discuss the ins and out of GED equivalents for getting into US Universities you should start a thread. You've added nothing to the point of this thread other than trying to change the subject Im afraid.
I'd gladly discuss the subject (indeed any subject), if you weren't trying to muddle your way out of it in a patronising fashion every time you're proven wrong, or the discussion doesnt suit your agenda.
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  #143  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:04
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Thank you very much Jern. I was waiting for you to have a look at it because those figures kept puzzling me even after Zuger sent me the entire table he had used for designing that graph and even after he had amended his original graph. I said to myself, "For Pete's sake, where is that patent guy when we urgently need him?" I knew for sure something was wrong, without any ill intent on Zuger's side, mind you.

Now what would the really relevant figures look like?
I'm not sure that numbers of patent applications are much help here. The best source if data I have found is the WEF Global Competitiveness Index which gives detailed rankings, broken down by category and by country. This is much more interesting than patent numbers (although patent numbers are mentioned - right at the bottom of the last category).

According to the WEF index, Switzerland is the most competitive country on the planet. But this takes into account a great many factors. When it comes to innovation, CH comes out 2nd (1st is USA).

When it comes to patents per capita, CH comes seventh (159 per million population). Ahead of CH are: China/Taiwan 287, Japan 279, USA 262, Israel 195, Korea 181 and Finland 163.

There are lots of interesting ways of displaying the WEF competitiveness index data - it's a very powerful website and well worth a visit.
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  #144  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:09
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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we were discussing how to measure creativity. some one suggested money. My point was that just because something makes lots of money doesnt mean it helps humanity or is creative. You should read the entire thread.
I did read the thread and you missed the point.

You seem to make some link between 'helping humanity' and 'being innovative' and 'creativity', with some misinterpretation of World Bank data in the middle of it all....

Never mind.
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  #145  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:10
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I'd gladly discuss the subject (indeed any subject), if you weren't trying to muddle your way out of it in a patronising fashion every time you're proven wrong, or the discussion doesnt suit your agenda.
wow.... now I have no clue what your talking about.
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  #146  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:11
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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When it comes to patents per capita, CH comes seventh (159 per million population). Ahead of CH are: China/Taiwan 287, Japan 279, USA 262, Israel 195, Korea 181 and Finland 163.
I just realised that these WEF figures for patents must be wrong (far too low at 159 per million population), so ignore that figure. I'll see if I can find some better numbers for patents filed by Swiss companies.
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  #147  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:16
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I did read the thread and you missed the point.

You seem to make some link between 'helping humanity' and 'being innovative' and 'creativity', with some misinterpretation of World Bank data in the middle of it all....

Never mind.
At the beginning of the thread patent data was a topic. So when I found some long dated patent data I brought it to the discussion. Patents are a measure of innovation and creativeness. As are copyrights. So whats more important? Making money off of patents and copyrights? Or creating something that helps us on an every day basis?
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  #148  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:16
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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I just realised that these WEF figures for patents must be wrong (far too low at 159 per million population), so ignore that figure. I'll see if I can find some better numbers for patents filed by Swiss companies.
Agreed, tried to disprove them but whatever alternative source I could find seemed equally flawed. But patents accepted or applications made still remains one of the worst measurements of innovation, as only a fraction of which are actual product innovations, and it has more to do with the legal, economic circumstances of a country.

People look at the number of patents filed by China, but they completely overlook that most of these patents are worthless pieces of paper only there to make the country look good. Zhongxing (state-owned telecom) alone filed more than 5'000 patents (!) last year, despite the fact that they haven't got a single innovative consumer product. (they have a couple of satelites though, but you get the picture)

Last edited by simon_ch; 27.07.2011 at 15:30. Reason: shpeling.
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  #149  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:36
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Are you just trolling or trying to have a serious discussion about innovation.
Has something in this thread given you any indication that it's a 'serious discussion'?
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  #150  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:38
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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There is no proof of that. That's just the way you experience the internet.
Seriously. Porn on the internet is something everyone has experienced. It's like masturbation...everyone does it, no one admits to it. It's just a matter of degree. It's naive to think that porn played a small role in the expansion of the internet.
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  #151  
Old 27.07.2011, 15:49
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Seriously. Porn on the internet is something everyone has experienced. It's like masturbation...everyone does it, no one admits to it. It's just a matter of degree. It's naive to think that porn played a small role in the expansion of the internet.

Challenge accepted!
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  #152  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Seriously. Porn on the internet is something everyone has experienced. It's like masturbation...everyone does it, no one admits to it. It's just a matter of degree. It's naive to think that porn didn't play a HUGE role in the expansion of the internet.
Fixed that for you and yes I know. I was just pulling your leg. So to say.
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  #153  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Do "people" know their figures?

Primary school 4-5 years. Middle School 3-4 years. High School 4 years.

Unless you start primary at 4, no way you get your Matura / Baccalaureate / whatever you call it at 16.
Some children jump years, generally if they can read and write and do basic mathematics before the go to school then they don't like to put them in with those learning to read.
In the US you can join University in the High School, so you actually start doing the first two years of college while at High School. Or you can do AP's in High School which takes care of it while still getting involved in all the other High School stuff.

However, there is more to inventing than having a PhD, you have to be able to think 'outside-the-box'. You also have to have an awareness of you market; necessity is the mother of invention (or it used to be) a Swiss Zyliss rotary grater may be a great invention in Switzerland but not that useful in a country where food prep doesn't need a grater.

Sometimes a disability or inadequacy forces people to think in different way. For instance the inventor who won the UK apprentice recently was dyslexic, he claims that his dyslexia forced him to find discover different paths to overcome obstacles.They tend to be divergent thinkers. My sister is really inventive she is also dyslexic.

What makes me sad is that necessity used to be the mother of invention, but now because of the patent trolls ( please listen to the NPR program I posted about the patent mafia- warning others to pay for the protection they are selling or be ruined) the whole system is messed up. This will cripple invention.
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  #154  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:15
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Sometimes a disability or inadequacy forces people to think in different way. For instance the inventor who won the UK apprentice recently was dyslexic, he claims that his dyslexia forced him to find discover different paths to overcome obstacles.They tend to be divergent thinkers. My sister is really inventive she is also dyslexic.

What makes me sad is that necessity used to be the mother of invention, but now because of the patent trolls ( please listen to the NPR program I posted about the patent mafia- warning others to pay for the protection they are selling or be ruined) the whole system is messed up. This will cripple invention.
Harry Dent brings up a good point that the biggest jumps in innovation come when the income gap is at its most disparaging. So when the 1% of the population controls 50%+ of the wealth in a country it massively boost creativity and inventions (1790,1927,1998 etc).... He also points out that unemployed,educated, people between the ages of 15 and 35 are the most likely to make an industry shattering invention (the radio, operating system, TV, telegraph etc).

When people are at a disadvantage they are most likely to swing for the fences.
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  #155  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:21
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

Well first of all we have to consider it's a FRENCH business school. Since when do the French like to work? Oxymoronic. Orson Welles in The Third Man said it best:

"Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly." (Germany really invented the cuckoo clock).

I think it is well known that those countries that face strife and oppression can be the most innovative by need. Also, those countries that reward entrepreneurialship or small businesses, like the States, produce the most innovation.

Maybe a measure like patents per cap (although China would be discluded), or venture cap money, might be a better measure.....
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  #156  
Old 27.07.2011, 16:28
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Well first of all we have to consider it's a FRENCH business school. Since when do the French like to work? Oxymoronic. Orson Welles in The Third Man said it best:

"Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly." (Germany really invented the cuckoo clock).

I think it is well known that those countries that face strife and oppression can be the most innovative by need. Also, those countries that reward entrepreneurialship or small businesses, like the States, produce the most innovation.

Maybe a measure like patents per cap (although China would be discluded), or venture cap money, might be a better measure.....

Thats right. Lest we forget France was the most innovative country in Europe after the Franco-Prussian war. The French were quicker to adopt airplanes than the Americans when they first saw the Wright brothers.
Yes the patents per capita issue is cloudy when we bring Asia into the picture. Japan and S. Korea make up the majority of patent applications in the world, per capita. 10x the US's figure. Venture Capital is still my favorite, but its not quantifiable for Swiss firms.
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  #157  
Old 28.07.2011, 08:55
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Is this the world's most pointless discussion at the moment, or what? People will be, on average, creative. The law of large numbers dictates that there will be roughly the same percentage of 'creative' people (however you want to measure that) in a population. What will matter are the structural impediments to bringing an idea to market. No one doubts that the Chinese are pretty creative, but I'm sure they aren't too worried about holding patents.
No, I disagree on this. Creativity and innovation are heavily influenced by culture, living standards, economic reward structures and education levels.
Intellectual property views are also very heavily influenced by those factors as well.
That was and is my whole point, that the number of patents being filed does not correlate directly to how creative or innovative a country is but rather does correlate directly to how protectionist a country is about what it believes to be it's intellectual property.

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FWIW, TBL was a Brit working at CERN as an independent contractor. Seems a little odd to be co-opting someone from another country into your argument about Swiss creativity. The idea of a hypertext markup language had been around for quite some time.
He could have "invented" it anywhere, he just happened to be at CERN as some sort of do-it-yourself postdoc. And notice...he didn't stay in Switzerland.
If you are going to base an innovation on the birthplace, citizenship or current living location of the innovator, we are going to have to throw this whole debate away right now. Innovations are being counted in this discussion as where they were innovated, not where the guy was born or lives now. I mean else the the thread would most probably say "Is Monaco the world's most innovative country?"
I think you are misreading here. I am not trying to make an argument about the Swiss being the most creative people in the world or anything like that. My primary points during this whole discussion are that patents don't equal creativity and that the amount of patents that are applied for in the US does not make them the most amazingly cool creative bestes nation on the planet. I don't believe they are better than Switzerland....sorry. I don't believe that it is the most amazing place in the world but I still think that it is a pretty innovative nation.
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  #158  
Old 28.07.2011, 09:02
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

Had another thought on this. Immigration might be a helpful measure, but not solely alone. People will move to countries where they feel more opportunity is available. Although, we can't get a good measure on illegal immigration.....
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  #159  
Old 28.07.2011, 09:10
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Re: Switzerland world's most innovative country?

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Nothing is, but it doesn't keep you guys from bickering about it. All you've proven is that despite who invented it, 90% of the internet is used for porn, 9% is used for LOLcats, and 1% is used for bickering endlessly on forums.
We are talking about the Internet, not your browser history!!!
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