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Old 25.07.2011, 22:47
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Tweener, been asking myself the same question.

Amogles, do you really think the 'average' right winger and anti-multiculturalist in Norway had any idea this was going to happen? Do you really believe the UDC, National Front in France or Belgium, etc, or even the English Defence League may not harbour small extremist groups- hell bent on violence? I hope you are right.
Just to take examples. There a while ago was that killing in Thun. Alright, proforma, the SVP had nothing to do with it. but in reality the culprits were SVP propaganda inspired
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:47
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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are you sure ? have you in the past 15 months discussed matters with SVP admirers ?
I've spoke to anti-Semitic tulip admirers, there's a causation problem here Wolli. The SVP has nothing whatsoever to do with the Norway shootings, ideologically or otherwise and, even though I hate the SVP, the implication of the OP is incredibly offensive.
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:52
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

There can be a big disparity Economisto, between the officials of a party and their rank and file followers. Those of us who live in rural areas, speak the language and get a chance to 'discuss' issues like immigration with the locals (those we grew up with) - do perhaps get closer to the 'nitty gritty' of the rank and file SVP/UDC supporters. And it can be quiet shocking, I can tell you.
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Old 25.07.2011, 22:58
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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There can be a big disparity Economisto, between the officials of a party and their rank and file followers. Those of us who live in rural areas, speak the language and get a chance to 'discuss' issues like immigration with the locals (those we grew up with) - do perhaps get closer to the 'nitty gritty' of the rank and file SVP/UDC supporters. And it can be quiet shocking, I can tell you.
I understand that. But there is a commonality among terrorists of this type around the world, be it "Islamic" terrorism or "fascist" terrorism or whatever. I can tell you all of this has nothing to do with the political or ideological fundamentals but to do with the individual. Typically these are poor or occasionally psychologically disturbed individuals who are easily led and incredibly vulnerable. Standing and shooting a group of children is illogical and will not further anyone's goals. Terrorism has a 100% long term failure rate. Has Osama Bin Laden made life better for any Muslim? The perpetrator of this crime won't further his so-called cause, quite the opposite.

My point is the absolute non-correlation between standing and shooting a group of children, and bitterly moaning about too many black people (or whatever these people talk about). The latter is biggoted/racist/small minded/fascist/Nazi or whatever. The former is psychologically disturbed/incredibly socially vulnerable.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:09
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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If anyone thinks that this Norwegian mass murderer really had a genuine political motive, then you're just being baffled by media bullshit.

Whilst I don't have any more insight into this incidence than anyone else, his behavior is akin to what I would call mentally disturbed. We all have crazy ideas, some more extreme than others, but what happened in Norway Friday, just has happened in other massacres carried out by mentally disturbed killers, is that the fantasy didn't stay inside his head. Something short circuited in his brain and he overcame the natural balance that most of us have when dealing with extremes and he actually considered that carrying out his appalling acts was a better option than another course. That's psychotic and really dangerous. Not political, whatever he claims. And now the stupid press are doing him the favor of actually publishing all the crap he was on about; way to go. There should be a news black out about his personal extreme manifesto, you lose the freedom of speech when you slaughter nearly a hundred innocent people for absolutely no reason.

This isn't politics folk, it's mental insanity.
No, it is similar to what you can hear from active SVPlers in a pub. The only difference is the final jump into crime and violence. But in fact, you can hear such "wisdom" in any pub around here from otherwise more or less "sane" people. In short, the whole thing was and IS political as political can be. Worse, I am sure that only too many people all over Europe share his views up to quite some extent.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:12
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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I've spoke to anti-Semitic tulip admirers, there's a causation problem here Wolli. The SVP has nothing whatsoever to do with the Norway shootings, ideologically or otherwise and, even though I hate the SVP, the implication of the OP is incredibly offensive.
No, the implication of the OP only is exaggerated. Sure, the SVP has nothing to do with that terrorist. BUT the reality remains that their ideology is encouraging such folks.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:14
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

The number of times I've heard people here say 'I am not racist, but God created Switzerland for us, and Africa for the n------ so they can stay there, simple'- and this said by very ordinary up-standing citizens, who are members of the said party. And they have no idea just how shocking this is, that is the worst bit. No, I don't think any of them would go on a shooting spree though- but the potential is there, it feels at times.

Last edited by economisto; 25.07.2011 at 23:29. Reason: corrected inflammatory term
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:16
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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No, the implication of the OP only is exaggerated. Sure, the SVP has nothing to do with that terrorist. BUT the reality remains that their ideology is encouraging such folks.
Well, I see many leftists being terrorists as well, so to claim that terrorism is due to "extreme right wing" groups is total BS!

Terrorism is due to extremists, be they left or right.

And the SVP is hardly "extreme right" compared to the US Republican party, and many others.

Tom
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:16
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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I understand that. But there is a commonality among terrorists of this type around the world, be it "Islamic" terrorism or "fascist" terrorism or whatever. I can tell you all of this has nothing to do with the political or ideological fundamentals but to do with the individual. Typically these are poor or occasionally psychologically disturbed individuals who are easily led and incredibly vulnerable. Standing and shooting a group of children is illogical and will not further anyone's goals. Terrorism has a 100% long term failure rate. Has Osama Bin Laden made life better for any Muslim? The perpetrator of this crime won't further his so-called cause, quite the opposite.

My point is the absolute non-correlation between standing and shooting a group of children, and bitterly moaning about too many black people (or whatever these people talk about). The latter is biggoted/racist/small minded/fascist/Nazi or whatever. The former is psychologically disturbed/incredibly socially vulnerable.
Sorry, but how do you arrive at the adventourous conclusion that Osama Bin Laden wanted to make life better for any Muslims ?

OBL never furthered his cause by his actions, but rather the opposite.
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  #30  
Old 25.07.2011, 23:26
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

In response: I feel that there isn't a continuum here. That mass murder doesn't occur when people who feel really strongly about something change and start feeling really REALLY strongly about something. Every people who "support" terrorism, fine and dandy but they aren't the ones doing it. And that's for a good reason - they have families and jobs and are basically happy and don't want to spend the rest of their lives in jail. Their lives have meaning. If your life doesn't have meaning, either because you live in Gaza and all your mates are dead or because you live in rural Pakistan and wish you lived on a dollar a day like those lucky guys in Africa or you live south of the Mason Dixon line and are dyslexic and laughed at and all the good gang spots are already taken, then you're likely to hook onto something to make you feel like you belong. Most of these will be cults, and barring a mass suicide, you'll never hear of them again. But some of them, the ones you hear about, will be terror cells. Now, the leaders of these organisation might have some sort of political views, but I doubt it - I'd say it's mostly about control and power and ambition.

So here's the Godwinisation (it was coming anyway, wasn't it?). Hitler wasn't right wing. Sure, he might have started out that way, or used it as a cover (actually he rose to power on Exclusionist Socialist values - National Socialism is like communism but just for German/white people). Hitler killed Jews and loads of other people and wanted to conquer the world. There wasn't much actual ideology other than that. Kill the Jews and the Gypsies and conquer the world. That's it. Stalin was really similar too - he wouldn't know a communist if it bit him. Stalin also wanted to kill off an entire class and conquer the world. Opposite ends of the political spectrum, but basically the same sort of thing. Why? Because they weren't on the political spectrum, they just said they were and so people got all obsessed with politics. People basically trusted Hitler to tell them why he did what he did. If Gacy suddenly said "I killed all those people because I hate Greek people" - you'd just ignore him. So ignore the Norwegian shooter - he didn't kill those people because of anything he believed.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:30
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Well, I see many leftists being terrorists as well, so to claim that terrorism is due to "extreme right wing" groups is total BS!

Terrorism is due to extremists, be they left or right.

And the SVP is hardly "extreme right" compared to the US Republican party, and many others.

Tom
Terrorism can result out of both extreme right-wing and extreme left-wing positions. If you speak about the Republic Party in the USA, I might remind you of the point that this party was the party of gentlemen like Dwight D Eisenhower, Richard Milhous Nixon and Gerald Ford. The SVP was the party of people like Mr Rudolf Minger, Mr Friedrich Traugott Wahlen, Mr Rudolf Gnägi, Mr Leon Schlumpf, Mr Adolf Ogi, gents who for sure were not in the line of Ayatollah Blocher Now, let's say it clearly, I not for a moment think that Mr Blocher would support terrorism or violence but his politics DO encourage such developments.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:31
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

St2lemans groans me!?! Do you really think I make this stuff up? You have no idea, sorry.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:33
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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The number of times I've heard people here say 'I am not racist, but God created Switzerland for us, and Africa for the n------ so they can stay there, simple'- and this said by very ordinary up-standing citizens, who are members of the said party. And they have no idea just how shocking this is, that is the worst bit. No, I don't think any of them would go on a shooting spree though- but the potential is there, it feels at times.
They are neither ordinary or up-standing Odile
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  #34  
Old 25.07.2011, 23:35
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

I see what you mean - and yes I agree. And yet ... they are here, which is even more worrying.
  #35  
Old 25.07.2011, 23:41
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

This kind of actions like what happened in Norway is just cumulation of the crap right wing parties keeps spreading everyday, you cannot say where or when it's gonna happen next, it can happen anytime, anywhere and we won't ever know till it happens same as what happened in Norway and it was totally unexpected, no country is ever safe nor protected of this....not even Switzerland.

The only solution is, people should stop the right wing parties from spreading hate, anger and fear in the minds of the people....this is not gonna lead is anywhere good and we can expect much more situations like this happening in the future due to withdrawal of armies from war zones, increase of muslims in the western society, tough economical times, high unemployment and much more reasons.
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Old 25.07.2011, 23:50
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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I see what you mean - and yes I agree. And yet ... they are here, which is even more worrying.
There's a small difference between someone who says all black people should get out of Switzerland, and someone who will shout or spit at a black person on the street. There's then a huge difference between that person and someone who would plan to stab or shoot a black person. Then there's a total difference including a mental imbalance between them and someone who would shoot up a school of Swiss children on the basis that some of them might grow up to like black people.
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Old 26.07.2011, 00:14
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Is he though?

Even when 9/11 happened, most people understood that this was the work of extremists and not of Muslims in general. Maybe sometimes when people speak that's a bit of a mouthful to say every time so they cut corners. But I'm pretty sure most people do know the difference.

However, when all those protests were going on about the Danish cartoons and Swiss flags were being burnt, I wonder if those Muslims really knew the difference?
Huh? Really?

Did you ask a muslim what it was to be a muslim after 9/11? Most people didn't know the difference, they took all their anger, all they hatred and spit it to any muslim they could have their hands on. How many covered women got beat up, harassed, etc. to ''look'' like a terrorist? All the extremes security mesure in airport where those who ''look'' like muslim, arabs, terrorists are getting a special extra checkup?

Whities knows the difference but muslims don't?

Well, you should spend a day in a muslim ''look'' and tell me if you think people can see the difference.
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  #38  
Old 26.07.2011, 00:23
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

A few things are sure in my opinion:
- Norway, a great fantastic country from many points of view (at least for me), has lost its "innocence"...a very sad day not only for the country, but for the entire world.

- In my opinion Swiss people are, on average, more xenophobic than Norwegian/Nordic people, because of overpopulation of their country, and because they are at the center of Europe and so have always been under the positive and negative influxes of movements of people, but...the direct democracy system is a great "output valve" for their "frustrations". Swiss people can't say "We don't have control of our country, the elites rule us, etc...", at least not as much as other Far-right lunatics, because THEY ARE in (more or less) direct control of their country.

- Turning your head in front of the fact that THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS with SOME immigrants coming to Europe, and to the fact that it's the lower classes of society that are feeling most of the disadvantages of uncontrolled immigration...won't solve any problem. It will actually just exacerbate the tension.
I'm not against immigration...mankind has always moved from one country or continent to another. But there are some limits, lines that shouldn't be crossed, and respect for your host culture. What I see sometimes in many European countries is that a small percentage of certain immigrant communities tend to not integrate, pretend to have only rights and no duties, even revert to crime...they basically think that they are at home and can behave like they want. And this makes A LOT of damage to the image of the entire immigrants groups, of the honest, hard-working ones, that respect the rules (even when they seem strange compared to where they come from...I'm sorry but if you come to my house you MUST obey to my rules).
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Old 26.07.2011, 01:12
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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In response: I feel that there isn't a continuum here. That mass murder doesn't occur when people who feel really strongly about something change and start feeling really REALLY strongly about something. Every people who "support" terrorism, fine and dandy but they aren't the ones doing it. And that's for a good reason - they have families and jobs and are basically happy and don't want to spend the rest of their lives in jail. Their lives have meaning. If your life doesn't have meaning, either because you live in Gaza and all your mates are dead or because you live in rural Pakistan and wish you lived on a dollar a day like those lucky guys in Africa or you live south of the Mason Dixon line and are dyslexic and laughed at and all the good gang spots are already taken, then you're likely to hook onto something to make you feel like you belong. Most of these will be cults, and barring a mass suicide, you'll never hear of them again. But some of them, the ones you hear about, will be terror cells. Now, the leaders of these organisation might have some sort of political views, but I doubt it - I'd say it's mostly about control and power and ambition.

So here's the Godwinisation (it was coming anyway, wasn't it?). Hitler wasn't right wing. Sure, he might have started out that way, or used it as a cover (actually he rose to power on Exclusionist Socialist values - National Socialism is like communism but just for German/white people). Hitler killed Jews and loads of other people and wanted to conquer the world. There wasn't much actual ideology other than that. Kill the Jews and the Gypsies and conquer the world. That's it. Stalin was really similar too - he wouldn't know a communist if it bit him. Stalin also wanted to kill off an entire class and conquer the world. Opposite ends of the political spectrum, but basically the same sort of thing. Why? Because they weren't on the political spectrum, they just said they were and so people got all obsessed with politics. People basically trusted Hitler to tell them why he did what he did. If Gacy suddenly said "I killed all those people because I hate Greek people" - you'd just ignore him. So ignore the Norwegian shooter - he didn't kill those people because of anything he believed.
So you don't think politics/religion can radicalize people?

e.g. raf in Germany in the 70ies - which started out as a student movement and over time developed into a terrorist group, carried and triggered by the then left intellectual sentiment of a big part of this generation.


Edit: Same for Hitler, though he was believed to be schizoid, and this may be the driving factor of his motivation to kill, the trigger for his anti-semitism were probably the 'voelkische' sentiments of the time, and his mentors of Ariosophy, which radicalized him, and enabled him to canalise his madness and to give it an outlet?
  #40  
Old 26.07.2011, 08:37
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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So you don't think politics/religion can radicalize people?
True, I don't. Politics and religion are created by people and their various iterations are designed to do different things. These ideological superstructures are (can be for the right recipient) tools of control.
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