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Old 26.07.2011, 09:29
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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There can be a big disparity Economisto, between the officials of a party and their rank and file followers. Those of us who live in rural areas, speak the language and get a chance to 'discuss' issues like immigration with the locals (those we grew up with) - do perhaps get closer to the 'nitty gritty' of the rank and file SVP/UDC supporters. And it can be quiet shocking, I can tell you.
I've highlighted the bits that summarise this.

The statement is not just true in Switzerland but virtually everywhere. In rural areas people think and talk differently and sometimes to city folks it's a bit shocking. Ever been to rural Bavaria? Rural Egypt? Rural USA? Same stories everywhere.
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  #42  
Old 26.07.2011, 09:32
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Sorry, but how do you arrive at the adventourous conclusion that Osama Bin Laden wanted to make life better for any Muslims ?

OBL never furthered his cause by his actions, but rather the opposite.

well, maybe he set into motion a chain of actions that will, in a roundabout way, make the world a better and safer place, also for Mulsims. That wasn't his intention, but it may yet be the effect.

History is facsinating.
  #43  
Old 26.07.2011, 09:37
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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So you don't think politics/religion can radicalize people?

e.g. raf in Germany in the 70ies - which started out as a student movement and over time developed into a terrorist group, carried and triggered by the then left intellectual sentiment of a big part of this generation.


Edit: Same for Hitler, though he was believed to be schizoid, and this may be the driving factor of his motivation to kill, the trigger for his anti-semitism were probably the 'voelkische' sentiments of the time, and his mentors of Ariosophy, which radicalized him, and enabled him to canalise his madness and to give it an outlet?
or how about the theme of a rebel without a cause. Some people just want to be violent or do other nasty things and then seek a way to rationalise that (it wasn't my fault, the other started) or attach themselves to a political philosophy that rationalises their urges and makes them seem right. Maybe, had the RAF terrorists lived 30 years earlier or so, they would have been Nazi war criminals. Who knows?
  #44  
Old 26.07.2011, 11:01
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Huh? Really?

Did you ask a muslim what it was to be a muslim after 9/11? Most people didn't know the difference, they took all their anger, all they hatred and spit it to any muslim they could have their hands on. How many covered women got beat up, harassed, etc. to ''look'' like a terrorist? All the extremes security mesure in airport where those who ''look'' like muslim, arabs, terrorists are getting a special extra checkup?

Whities knows the difference but muslims don't?

Well, you should spend a day in a muslim ''look'' and tell me if you think people can see the difference.
Well, I do remember seeing after the Danish cartoons that there were riot crowds on the streets of cities across the Muslim world, you know cities in which the circulation of the Aarhus local newpaper is probably less than single figures. And they were burning flags and things and people even got killed.

After 9/11, I don't remember riot crowds on the streets of Zürich burning flags of Muslim countries and fire-bombing their embassies. Some individual nutters ran out of control maybe. But the scale was totally different.

And then killing several thousand people is a bigger provocation than a silly cartoon, is it not? So you can expect a stronger reaction.

Besides which, what is a "muslim look" in your eyes? In Switzerland most Muslims are Bosnians or Kosovars. They don't look too different from anybody else. You know, whities can be muslims even if it distorts your good versus evil picture.

And as for the airport security. That's affecting everybody in case you haven't noticed.
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  #45  
Old 26.07.2011, 13:31
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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the SVP ... it's part of a wider European problem of a violent, fascist, reactionary far-right, that is spreading like a cancer in almost all European countries, and that it's not very different from the Talibans and Al-Qaeda
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Who's the extremist here?
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are you sure ? have you in the past 15 months discussed matters with SVP admirers ? HAve you ever heard "arguments" only tooooo similar to the ideology of that terrorist in Norway ? ever been confronted by positions like "no discussion, THIS is fact" ?? Have you listened to "arguments" of Mr Brunner, Mr Bortoluzzi and Prof Dr Mörgeli ?

I am fairly positive that NONE of them is in favour of terrorism. But I hope that some of them, in their "silent chambers" reconsider at least sectors of their positions
Yes, I'm quite sure that the SVP is very far from the murderous, totalitarian, despotic regime of the Taliban and the murderous, dogma-driven, blind fury of al-Qaeda.

We are very fortunate to live in a genuinely democratic country. The prominence of the SVP here is entirely due to the choice of the citizens of Switzerland. They do not live in fear of the SVP, afraid that if they vote for any other party they will have limbs amputated or loved ones murdered.

Statements likening the SVP to extremist groups such as the Taliban and al-Qaeda are hysterical and hyperbolic. Wolli, have you ever seen the SVP or its followers advocate the complete destruction of any group of people? Ever witnessed murders sanctioned by the party? Cheered as acolytes of the SVP engineered acts of mass slaughter in the name of some fanatical ideology? No? Then calm down. We expats and a minority of Swiss voters may find the SVP objectionable, even despicable, but they're not even in the same "class" (for want of a less flattering term) as the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

By the way, what's the meaning of your reference to "the past 15 months"?
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  #46  
Old 26.07.2011, 13:42
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Yes, I'm quite sure that the SVP is very far from the murderous, totalitarian, despotic regime of the Taliban and the murderous, dogma-driven, blind fury of al-Qaeda.

We are very fortunate to live in a genuinely democratic country. The prominence of the SVP here is entirely due to the choice of the citizens of Switzerland. They do not live in fear of the SVP, afraid that if they vote for any other party they will have limbs amputated or loved ones murdered.

Statements likening the SVP to extremist groups such as the Taliban and al-Qaeda are hysterical and hyperbolic. Wolli, have you ever seen the SVP or its followers advocate the complete destruction of any group of people? Ever witnessed murders sanctioned by the party? Cheered as acolytes of the SVP engineered acts of mass slaughter in the name of some fanatical ideology? No? Then calm down. We expats and a minority of Swiss voters may find the SVP objectionable, even despicable, but they're not even in the same "class" (for want of a less flattering term) as the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

By the way, what's the meaning of your reference to "the past 15 months"?
I not only above made it clear that the SVP cannot be likened to terrorist groups or persons like elQaeda or the Taliban. The problem with the SVP is that the propaganda of the party can and does mislead extremist groups or person on the fringe of their followers. If you want to press the matter, you CAN liken the SVP to the CSU in Bavaria.

I do not have to calm down, as I did not get excited in any way.

But I have heard statements from SVPlers as mentioned above, which is embarassing and might be reason for concern. I at the hand guarantee that none of the persons mentioned in any way uttered approval of terrorism.
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Old 26.07.2011, 13:53
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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I not only above made it clear that the SVP cannot be likened to terrorist groups or persons like elQaeda or the Taliban. The problem with the SVP is that the propaganda of the party can and does mislead extremist groups or person on the fringe of their followers. If you want to press the matter, you CAN liken the SVP to the CSU in Bavaria.

I do not have to calm down, as I did not get excited in any way.

But I have heard statements from SVPlers as mentioned above, which is embarassing and might be reason for concern. I at the hand guarantee that none of the persons mentioned in any way uttered approval of terrorism.
I'm glad to hear that you agree that the SVP can in no way be likened to terrorist groups or repressive regimes. Presumably, then, you understand my rhetorical question early in this thread: "Who's the extremist here?"

You did get sufficiently excited to groan that rhetorical question. I took that as an indication that you disagreed with the sentiment of my post, but now you say that you agree with me. Curious.
  #48  
Old 26.07.2011, 14:00
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

I guess what interests me is the way he is described.

Also he has christian fundamentalist views here is is mostly being described as an anti-Islamic extremist.

Where as 9-11 and the rest are described as Muslim fundamentalists even though they are also anti-western.

If we call terrorists that act because of (mistaken) Muslim beliefs Islamic terrorists when do we not call this terrorist, who acted out of (mistaken) Christian beliefs a Christian terrorist? He is the same.

OK, most of the 'Al-Qaeda' attacks are parts of a wider organisation, but that organisation primarily wants to get rid of westerners out of the middle-east, and he wanted to get Muslims out of Norway. Same motives. Same description. Also, we do not know if he was part of a greater organisation or not. He's saying he was part of the EDL, although they deny it.
  #49  
Old 26.07.2011, 14:10
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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He's saying he was part of the EDL, although they deny it.
Not exactly. He said he had contact with some EDL members, and they have admitted it. He was also said to have had a "hypnotic" effect on some of them. Or so they say, at least.
To try and equate this nutter, Al Quaeda and the SVP is simply ludicrous. Even the further far right PNoS don't go to these extremes.
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Old 26.07.2011, 14:23
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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However, a senior member said he understood Breivik had met EDL leaders when he attended the demonstration in March 2010, and described him as "very affable". "I spoke to him a few times on Facebook and he is extremely intelligent and articulate and very affable," the source told The Daily Telegraph. "He is someone who can project himself very well and I presume there would be those within the EDL who would be quite taken by that. It's like Hitler, people said he was hypnotic. This guy had the same sort of effect."
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In posts on a Norwegian website, Breivik shows he has an interest and deep, current knowledge of UK far-right politics. In one posting he called for the establishment of a "Norwegian EDL" and he claims to have had contact with it and another far-right organisation, Stop the Islamification of Europe.
He commented: "I have on some occasions discussed with SIOE and EDL and recommended them to use conscious strategies.
He believes that the tactics of the EDL are "now to entice an overreaction from Jihad Youth / Extreme-Marxists something they have succeeded several times already. The reaction has been repeatedly shown on the news which has booster EDLs ranks high. This has also benefited GDP. WinWin for both"
Both groups are known to organise via social media such as Facebook. One Facebook user who says he was once with the EDL also claimed that Brievik had been on his friend list. The EDL has not responded to a Channel 4 News request for an interview to clarify if it has had contact with Breivik.

Of course, the EDL deny having anything to do with him. I personally don't believe anything that comes out of their mouths.
  #51  
Old 26.07.2011, 14:48
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Swiss people are, on average, more xenophobic than Norwegian/Nordic people, because of overpopulation of their country
What "over-population"?

Far more room here than anywhere I've lived in the US.

Tom
  #52  
Old 26.07.2011, 14:54
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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What "over-population"?

Far more room here than anywhere I've lived in the US.

Tom
Quite. I don't think the xenophobia is linked to over-population, but if anything to the inate insular attitudes and isolation the Swiss have become accustomed to.
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Old 26.07.2011, 14:54
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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I'm glad to hear that you agree that the SVP can in no way be likened to terrorist groups or repressive regimes. Presumably, then, you understand my rhetorical question early in this thread: "Who's the extremist here?"

You did get sufficiently excited to groan that rhetorical question. I took that as an indication that you disagreed with the sentiment of my post, but now you say that you agree with me. Curious.
You titled him as "the extremist" (even if in the form of a question). To exaggerate does not mean to be an extremist. So, THIS is what I did and do disagree with.

Let's look back. The Deutsch-Nationale Partei of the 1920ies was comparable to the SVP in the Switzerland of today. It was a right-wing party with many business-tycoons and many officers in its rank. It was however definitely NOT Nazi, really not. But not only did its right-wing sector get over to the NSDAP, the party also, in the mistaken belief to be able to "control" him, went into a coalition with Adolf Hitler.

There is a fine line between either aspect. And it of course is the same on the left side of the political spectrum.

You may now declare that your question did not mean him being an extremist. This may well be true, but it SOUNDED as if
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Old 26.07.2011, 14:59
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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This kind of actions like what happened in Norway is just cumulation of the crap right wing parties keeps spreading everyday, you cannot say where or when it's gonna happen next, it can happen anytime, anywhere and we won't ever know till it happens same as what happened in Norway and it was totally unexpected, no country is ever safe nor protected of this....not even Switzerland.

The only solution is, people should stop the right wing parties from spreading hate, anger and fear in the minds of the people....this is not gonna lead is anywhere good and we can expect much more situations like this happening in the future due to withdrawal of armies from war zones, increase of muslims in the western society, tough economical times, high unemployment and much more reasons.
What, are you claiming only "right" wing parties do this crap?

What about the Brigate Rosse, Baader-Meinhof, Weather Underground, etc.?

Nut-jobs are nut-jobs, REGARDLESS of ideology.

Tom
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Old 26.07.2011, 15:03
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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What, are you claiming only "right" wing parties do this crap?

What about the Brigate Rosse, Baader-Meinhof, Weather Underground, etc.?

Nut-jobs are nut-jobs, REGARDLESS of ideology.

Tom
Uhm...almost all tyrants and murderers act under the guise of socialism, not fascism. As I said, I would class real Nazism as politically and economically (more) left wing than right wing.
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Old 26.07.2011, 15:04
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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What "over-population"?

Far more room here than anywhere I've lived in the US.

Tom

I think this might refer to population density. With Switzerland at almost 200 people/square km and the US at 1/6th of that
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Old 26.07.2011, 15:09
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Let's look back. The Deutsch-Nationale Partei of the 1920ies was comparable to the SVP in the Switzerland of today. It was a right-wing party with many business-tycoons and many officers in its rank. It was however definitely NOT Nazi, really not. But not only did its right-wing sector get over to the NSDAP, the party also, in the mistaken belief to be able to "control" him, went into a coalition with Adolf Hitler.
One of the great errors of history, and also a warning not to assume that just because somebody is an extremist that he must also be stupid and can thus easily be controlled.

But to fast forward 80 years, the SVP of today is definitely not in bed with the PNOS or anybody else like them and won't be asking them to share power any time soon. On the contrary, the SVP is the biggest obstacle to the PNOS's growth because the fence sitters and undecideds have walked across to the SVP long ago and are staying there as long as the SVP continues to be succesful. Of course if ever the SVP takes a serious knock and loses the mass of its support, that situation may change radically.

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What "over-population"?

Far more room here than anywhere I've lived in the US.

Tom
your point being?

Ask the Mexicans about xenophobia in the US.

Last edited by economisto; 26.07.2011 at 15:30. Reason: merged consecutive posts
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Old 26.07.2011, 15:26
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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One of the great errors of history, and also a warning not to assume that just because somebody is an extremist that he must also be stupid and can thus easily be controlled.

But to fast forward 80 years, the SVP of today is definitely not in bed with the PNOS or anybody else like them and won't be asking them to share power any time soon. On the contrary, the SVP is the biggest obstacle to the PNOS's growth because the fence sitters and undecideds have walked across to the SVP long ago and are staying there as long as the SVP continues to be succesful. Of course if ever the SVP takes a serious knock and loses the mass of its support, that situation may change radically.
While I accept them to be a different bunch, the PNOS to me quite personally nevertheless is "SVP mit Sahne"
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Old 26.07.2011, 15:39
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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While I accept them to be a different bunch, the PNOS to me quite personally nevertheless is "SVP mit Sahne"

uh? have you ever read any of their material or cheked them out. There are some massive differences there. Totally different views on the role of the state, welfare and other such socially oriented questions. The PNOS would nationalise all companies above a certain size. There's a clear smell of the old style right wing about them. I won't evoke Godwin.
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Old 26.07.2011, 15:54
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

I was surprized to see that people are referring the shooter as hero
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