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Old 01.08.2011, 23:22
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Provisonal IRA, Real IRA, ETA, all left-wing groups

It's not the left to right scale that defines how dangerous someone is, but extremism in any direction is dangerous.
Neither IRA nor ETA are really left-wing. They at best are centrists, or rather right-of-centre natinalists.
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Old 01.08.2011, 23:43
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

The IRA have spouted a Marxist doctrine - how is that centre right.
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Old 02.08.2011, 00:07
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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The IRA have spouted a Marxist doctrine - how is that centre right.
This is what is also strange about the Irish mainstream parties. The also at times spout Marxist doctrines but are RIGHT of centre. I regard this as a bit irritating.

While it is true that the North Irish Sinn Fein has moved clearly to LEFT of centre, the IRA moved differently. In 1969, the IRA split into the socialist "Official Irish Republican Army" and the more militant "Provisional Irish Republic Army". The "Provisionals" fairly swiftly got the upperhand, so that the left-wingers no longer were of much importance. THIS is the reason why I do NOT regard the IRA as LEFT but rather as either centrists of right-of-centre. If you further on look at Sinn Fein in the Iriish Republic you hardly see socialist positions really.
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Old 02.08.2011, 00:21
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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This is what is also strange about the Irish mainstream parties. The also at times spout Marxist doctrines but are RIGHT of centre. I regard this as a bit irritating.

While it is true that the North Irish Sinn Fein has moved clearly to LEFT of centre, the IRA moved differently. In 1969, the IRA split into the socialist "Official Irish Republican Army" and the more militant "Provisional Irish Republic Army". The "Provisionals" fairly swiftly got the upperhand, so that the left-wingers no longer were of much importance. THIS is the reason why I do NOT regard the IRA as LEFT but rather as either centrists of right-of-centre. If you further on look at Sinn Fein in the Iriish Republic you hardly see socialist positions really.
What made the provos right wing then?
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Old 02.08.2011, 00:26
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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What made the provos right wing then?
A) according to the report they were against the leftwingers. And people who are against leftwingers usually are rightwingers
B) they were linked with Sinn Fein, which at least by general standards are NOT left-wingers. They on the continents would be centrists ..... in Switzerland they would be CVP, while Fianna Fail might be compared to the FDP
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Old 02.08.2011, 00:54
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

Lifted from google somewhere

The long-term objective of the IRA, as expressed in its 'Green Book' - a handbook that every volunteer must study - is the 'establishment of a Democratic Socialist Republic'; the short-term objective is expressed simply as: 'Brits out'.

The political doctrine that drives the IRA is the concept that it has the right to exercise force to compel the British to withdraw from Northern Ireland.

Over the years, strategy has taken a number of forms. The main recent strategy is to mount bomb attacks on the UK mainland. The IRA believes that such attacks have a bigger impact on British public opinion than similar attacks in Northern Ireland, resulting in pressure on the government to withdraw from the North. According to one report, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, leaders of Sinn Fein, persuaded the IRA leadership not to resume attacks in Northern Ireland early this year.
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Old 02.08.2011, 01:05
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Neither IRA nor ETA are really left-wing. They at best are centrists, or rather right-of-centre natinalists.
ETA trace their origins to the Spanish Civil War. They were fighting against Franco and basically went under cover when the war was over and they realised they were too few and too weak to mount a proper war. ETA terror attacks happened throughout the entire reign of Franco and continued well beyond that.

Popular Basque sentiment may be nationalistic and right of centre. But popular Basque sentiment is not the ETA.
  #108  
Old 02.08.2011, 01:30
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Lifted from google somewhere

The long-term objective of the IRA, as expressed in its 'Green Book' - a handbook that every volunteer must study - is the 'establishment of a Democratic Socialist Republic'; the short-term objective is expressed simply as: 'Brits out'.

The political doctrine that drives the IRA is the concept that it has the right to exercise force to compel the British to withdraw from Northern Ireland.

Over the years, strategy has taken a number of forms. The main recent strategy is to mount bomb attacks on the UK mainland. The IRA believes that such attacks have a bigger impact on British public opinion than similar attacks in Northern Ireland, resulting in pressure on the government to withdraw from the North. According to one report, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, leaders of Sinn Fein, persuaded the IRA leadership not to resume attacks in Northern Ireland early this year.
THIS indeed is a strong argument. It at least shows that Sinn Fein at least in Ulster, uses sharp-left arguments. But the use of some leftist socialist rethorics does not make a party or a movement really leftwing. Mr Adams, to admit this, clearly however IS a leftist. All in all a centrist movement with still a left wing and a right wing. The left wing advocating moves towards socialism and the right wing advocating a heavy nationalism and nationalism is not left but right.

You in fact can see similar things about ETA, a movement which is sharply-nationalist and so right-wing but uses lots of leftist rethorics.

The question is WHY. Why these strange contradictions ? The answer is fairly simple. BOTH movements are single issue movements and so permanently try to satisfy potential followers from the far left to the far right. In Northern Ireland, as soon as Northern Ireland in full joins the Republic, the IRA and the North Irish Sinn Fein can be expected to break up. And when plus if the ETA achieves indepence for a united Spanish Basqueland and French Basque Land, the movement will break up into at least two parties.

The pattern is not really new. Former socialist trades unionist Benito Mussolini established the fascist state in Italy. Rethorically socialist but sharply anti-communist Colonel Nasr lead Egypt into real independence, nationalist most of its industry (leftist), but liquidated most of the Communists (righist) while liquidating much of the Muslim Brotherhood, an ultra-conservative rightwing movement (leftist) but in his last years happily starting re-privatisations (rightist). In Tunisia, Habib Bourguiba established the "Socialist" Néo-Déstour Party, but his policies were clearly right-of-centre, even when in all his speaches praising socialist ideals. President Assad Junior in Syria heavily defends the rule of the Socialist Party, but he is the one who privatised most of the Syrian economy.

Back to Ireland. While it is difficult to judge the actual political position of a party not (not yet) in power, what can be seen is that Fine Gael, whenever in power in the Irish Republic never was leftwing really. When you now insist that in your view the IRA and the Ulster Fine Gael are leftist, I cannot prove you the contrary, but do not see any proof for your view.
  #109  
Old 02.08.2011, 01:38
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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ETA trace their origins to the Spanish Civil War. They were fighting against Franco and basically went under cover when the war was over and they realised they were too few and too weak to mount a proper war. ETA terror attacks happened throughout the entire reign of Franco and continued well beyond that.

Popular Basque sentiment may be nationalistic and right of centre. But popular Basque sentiment is not the ETA.
Here you have to be careful. All non Castilian minded Spaniards sided with the left-dominated Republican coalition, even if being, like much of the Catalan spectrum, being NOT leftwing at all.

WHAT is "popular Basque sentiment" ? There have never been really conclusive elections and no popular votes about issues, not even conclusive opinion polls. Most info around are "estimates" of "experts" plus rather weird statements of the parties involved. I mean, it is obvious to me that many Basques who would welcome indepence of the Basque land do NOT accept the methods employed by ETA. And so do not trust ETA for a second.
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Old 02.08.2011, 02:07
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

Well at the end of the day left and right meet at the extremes and extreme left wing parties sometimes implement right wing ideas and vice versa. People like Ghaddafi for example are left wing in certain respects and right wing in others. Furthermore as long as a party is small and in opposition it can afford to cultivate a pure ideology, but as it grows and comes closer to power it has to embrace popular ideas just to grow and sometimes it even has to be opportunistic and sacrifice some of its ideology. And popular opinion can be quite contradictory sometimes.

And sometimes left and right are really just labels. The nationalist and orthodox faction in Israel is often considered to be right wing but in fact they look to the state to generously susbsize some of their activities and without these generous handouts their lifestyle would not at all be possible. Meanwhile on the other side of the divide the Palestianians are summarily considered left wing but in fact they define their own nation along blood and ethnic criteria making them much more right wing than even the orthodox Israelis who draw from many different countries and ethnictities.
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Old 02.08.2011, 02:38
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Well at the end of the day left and right meet at the extremes and extreme left wing parties sometimes implement right wing ideas and vice versa. People like Ghaddafi for example are left wing in certain respects and right wing in others. Furthermore as long as a party is small and in opposition it can afford to cultivate a pure ideology, but as it grows and comes closer to power it has to embrace popular ideas just to grow and sometimes it even has to be opportunistic and sacrifice some of its ideology. And popular opinion can be quite contradictory sometimes.

And sometimes left and right are really just labels. The nationalist and orthodox faction in Israel is often considered to be right wing but in fact they look to the state to generously susbsize some of their activities and without these generous handouts their lifestyle would not at all be possible. Meanwhile on the other side of the divide the Palestianians are summarily considered left wing but in fact they define their own nation along blood and ethnic criteria making them much more right wing than even the orthodox Israelis who draw from many different countries and ethnictities.

I mean, if you look to Palestine (out-of-PLO) Hamas is extreme right-wing, with el-Fatah being right of centre, PLA and el-Saika being centrist with only PFLP and PDFLP being leftwing. Which means that the Palestinians overall are at least right-of-centre.
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Old 02.08.2011, 08:28
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Neither IRA nor ETA are really left-wing. They at best are centrists, or rather right-of-centre natinalists.
Im trying to figure out where on earth do you get this stuff from? The IRA are leftists. Thats proven and well known, inclusive of the fact that communist czechoslovakia fully supported them including sending them weapons and ammunition. The same way they also assisted Fatah.

Your left wing bias is noted, as you have proudly pointed out in tons of postings on EF. But please dont try to go around telling me that extreme left wing groups, who are clearly extreme and left, many of whom even spout marxist garbage, are 'right of centre'. You probably even regard communism, an idealogy thats wiped out millions around the world, as 'right of centre' . I will concede that many of these extremists blur the line, but they all have their little manifesto books that sparked it - thats the bit to look at and whats important. Thats why they are in the extreme basket and rarely make any sense by the time they heads toward the grave.

Last edited by Lex; 02.08.2011 at 08:52.
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Old 02.08.2011, 10:17
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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Im trying to figure out where on earth do you get this stuff from? The IRA are leftists. Thats proven and well known, inclusive of the fact that communist czechoslovakia fully supported them including sending them weapons and ammunition. The same way they also assisted Fatah.

Your left wing bias is noted, as you have proudly pointed out in tons of postings on EF. But please dont try to go around telling me that extreme left wing groups, who are clearly extreme and left, many of whom even spout marxist garbage, are 'right of centre'. You probably even regard communism, an idealogy thats wiped out millions around the world, as 'right of centre' . I will concede that many of these extremists blur the line, but they all have their little manifesto books that sparked it - thats the bit to look at and whats important. Thats why they are in the extreme basket and rarely make any sense by the time they heads toward the grave.
el-Fatah is clearly right of centre and not leftwing at all. Their rightwing position was the main-reason why PFLP got founded, as they wanted to build up a counterweight on the left of centre. el-Fatah is the strongest movement inside the PLO, and the PLO charter is definitely NOT left-wing in any way.
-
You pointed to the fact that the Soviet Block supported the PLO. True, but the Soviet Union for many decades supported rightwing parties, it that was good for their interests. Strange as it is, the communists in case of such situations happily stored the world revolution in the fridge. And ehmmmm, no I regard Communists as extreme left-wing, except the Italian communists who over the decades moved from far left to the centre and are now known as the Democratic Party.

The IRA may be full of leftwing rethorics but their backers in the Republic are NOT leftwing. Result = centre
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Old 02.08.2011, 11:25
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

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no I regard Communists as extreme left-wing,
ok, at least ive seen you say it
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Old 02.08.2011, 13:47
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Re: Consequences of the Norway shooting on Switzerland

This thread lost all relevance to the original topic some pages back. Closed for business.

If anyone wants to start a new thread on foreign politics in General Off-topic, please feel free to do so.
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