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Old 10.05.2012, 13:11
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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I don't see how anyone can argue that religion has a place in schools or government. Religion is a personal choice and an opinion. Teachers should not teach it as anything other than that. As a teacher, it is my job to do present to kinds of things: fact and opinions. When I present opinions, I MUST show the different sides to the topic and I HAVE to stay completely unbiased. My students have no idea my religious views because it would be biased for them to know. There is a reason you are supposed to avoid discussing religion and politics. They are core fundamental beliefs that are often blinded by facts and can be completely opposing positions. Leave it to the children's parents and churches to handle the religious stuff.
1. It's a religion class and not mandatory. If parents don't want their kids to attend, they don't have to.

2. In our new Oberstufe school, there was a huge issue about displaying a large crucifix in the entrance hall. My kids thought it didn't need to be there but the local priest won and it's on display. Personally, I think it's a bit "in your face" and doesn't belong there.

3. Having said that, many windows face right towards the local church.
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  #242  
Old 10.05.2012, 13:19
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Religion should be presented in a purely factual and objective way if its to be a part of the taught curriculum.
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Old 10.05.2012, 14:23
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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1. It's a religion class and not mandatory. If parents don't want their kids to attend, they don't have to.

2. In our new Oberstufe school, there was a huge issue about displaying a large crucifix in the entrance hall. My kids thought it didn't need to be there but the local priest won and it's on display. Personally, I think it's a bit "in your face" and doesn't belong there.

3. Having said that, many windows face right towards the local church.
Having a class that is not mandatory is a step in the right direction, but it still not the best message to send. The fact that a religion class in one specific religion only is the one that is offered is biased in itself. If the religion class offered a wide view of all the major religions and what they believe, than I would fully support an elective religion class that is not compulsory.

I have no words for the cross being displayed. The cross is seen by some branches of christianity as a negative symbol. The Mormons do not use the cross in any way because they do not believe in celebrating Jesus' death, but his life.
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  #244  
Old 10.05.2012, 14:53
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross. An image/simulcram was put in his place and he was taken to heaven. They utterly deny the crucifixion of Jesus. The death and resurrection of Jesus are the centres of Christianity (Bultmann). Without it, you've got the Exemplar Christianity of the 17-19th Century, which was shown to be pretty worthless by the violence of the 20th century. (Moltmann).

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I don't see how anyone can argue that religion has a place in schools or government. Religion is a personal choice and an opinion. Teachers should not teach it as anything other than that. As a teacher, it is my job to do present to kinds of things: fact and opinions. When I present opinions, I MUST show the different sides to the topic and I HAVE to stay completely unbiased. My students have no idea my religious views because it would be biased for them to know. There is a reason you are supposed to avoid discussing religion and politics. They are core fundamental beliefs that are often blinded by facts and can be completely opposing positions. Leave it to the children's parents and churches to handle the religious stuff.
My three kids have gone/are going through the Swiss education system. While your mileage may vary, what you describe is EXACTLY how the system works in our experience.

I know a few teachers who teach the RE classes - which parents may withdraw their kids from if they wish. At least from the protestants, they are forbidden to do anything except teach about Christianity, and general moral lessons that may be drawn from some of the story - Good Samaritan etc.

So what was the problem again?
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  #245  
Old 10.05.2012, 15:28
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Having a class that is not mandatory is a step in the right direction, but it still not the best message to send. The fact that a religion class in one specific religion only is the one that is offered is biased in itself.
Here there are two classes: catholic, and protestant.

You are free to select one, or neither.

How is this a problem?

We sent our kids to the protestant one, as, while we are atheist, we felt a knowledge of christianity is useful, particularly due to it's historical influences.

Tom
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  #246  
Old 10.05.2012, 18:42
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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My three kids have gone/are going through the Swiss education system. While your mileage may vary, what you describe is EXACTLY how the system works in our experience.

I know a few teachers who teach the RE classes - which parents may withdraw their kids from if they wish. At least from the protestants, they are forbidden to do anything except teach about Christianity, and general moral lessons that may be drawn from some of the story - Good Samaritan etc.

So what was the problem again?
I used to be so enraged to hear about US politicians who were pushing to allow teachers to teach creationism as a theory along with evolution. Absolute bull in my opinion. You cannot teach a child that something that someone believes is therefore akin to fact. I will have to say that from what I seen, Swiss schools manage to keep religious doctrine out of the classroom much better than some of the back aswards states in the US.
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Old 10.05.2012, 18:50
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Since those classes are optional and take place outside school hours (at least in our area) there is absolutely no reason why other religious groups cannot organise their own. In La Chaux-de-Fonds there has always been a strong Jewish community, and the synagogue does organise classes.

It a private and optional matter.

Last edited by Odile; 10.05.2012 at 21:04.
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  #248  
Old 10.05.2012, 19:07
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Since those classes are optional and take place outside school hours - there is absolutely no reason why other religious groups cannot organise their own. In La Chaux-de-Fonds there has always been a strong Jewish community, and the synagogue does organise classes.

It a private and optional matter.

My daughter has Bible once a week and Religion once a week (catholic) and this is during the regular school hours.
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  #249  
Old 10.05.2012, 21:09
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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My daughter has Bible once a week and Religion once a week (catholic) and this is during the regular school hours.
Are these compulsory or do you make the choice to send your child to them?
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Old 11.05.2012, 01:05
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Since those classes are optional and take place outside school hours (at least in our area) there is absolutely no reason why other religious groups cannot organise their own. In La Chaux-de-Fonds there has always been a strong Jewish community, and the synagogue does organise classes.

It a private and optional matter.
It is the same where I am there are not religious classes in school, it is all done out of school.
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  #251  
Old 11.05.2012, 07:55
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Are these compulsory or do you make the choice to send your child to them?
I don't remember if there was a choice - but as we are raising the kids catholic I was not opposed. Last year we were in Germany and there you could choose catholic, protestant, or ethics...

I even remember back in the US that on Weds afternoons we catholic kids got in a bus and went out to religion class during the school day...this was up to 6th grade, I think.

Even though religion is all around you here, it seems much less "in your face" than in the US (politics wise). I feel it is important to learn religion as it forms so much of the world's history. I wouldn't be opposed if there was a general religious history class teaching all religions, but that is probably a bit much for 2nd grade?
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  #252  
Old 18.05.2012, 11:36
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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As we are talking about indoctrination here I thought I would pass on something my offspring mentioned the other day. They commented that these days some 2/3rds of all teaching students are religeous fundamentalists (both are in a position to know). Is this some sort of campaign by the ultra religeous to ensure they can brainwash future generations whether or not there is formal religeous education?
Your offspring have a point. I remember seeing a report about the growing numbers of evangelical teachers and student teachers.

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Old 18.05.2012, 13:58
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Yes. If it leads to division, dogmas prejudices, superstition, then why teach it?
Religion should unite us. If not, its to be rejected.



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Your offspring have a point. I remember seeing a report about the growing numbers of evangelical teachers and student teachers.

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  #254  
Old 18.05.2012, 14:02
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Olygirl, do you teach the oneness of all the worlds 9 major monotheistic religions at your school?
Each religion leads to the next, an evolution or progression.
There is actually no contradiction.
Each thousand years, a new teacher appears, or Messenger, like Jesus, Mohammed, moses, Krishna, with new rules to govern society and maintain unity.
In todays global nuclear society, we need divine guidelines for our survival together, as clearly the politicians have no solution.

How would that look? Ask the kids regarding science and religion, equality for women, if we need priests anymore - or if kids should decide for themselves, about the virtues, wether we should eat pork or not, etc.

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1. It's a religion class and not mandatory. If parents don't want their kids to attend, they don't have to.

2. In our new Oberstufe school, there was a huge issue about displaying a large crucifix in the entrance hall. My kids thought it didn't need to be there but the local priest won and it's on display. Personally, I think it's a bit "in your face" and doesn't belong there.

3. Having said that, many windows face right towards the local church.
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  #255  
Old 18.05.2012, 14:09
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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I used to be so enraged to hear about US politicians who were pushing to allow teachers to teach creationism as a theory along with evolution. Absolute bull in my opinion. You cannot teach a child that something that someone believes is therefore akin to fact. I will have to say that from what I seen, Swiss schools manage to keep religious doctrine out of the classroom much better than some of the back aswards states in the US.
It's still a theory of evolution, jerallie, even the scientists will tell you this. Admittedly to me, and millions of others in the world, it makes more sense than the religious explanation, but it's still a theory, not a fact.

That said I don't think creationism should be taught in schools as it is a religious viewpoint and not a scientific one. Church and Sunday schools are the places for creationism.
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  #256  
Old 18.05.2012, 14:12
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Do we need professional clergy and priests any more these days ?
Once, they were the only ones literate in the village.
Now we can all read the bible and Koran ourselves.

Does blessing weapons do more harm than good?
Why should nuns not marry monks ?
Surely they would make excellent parents?
Should the Pope give the tremendous wealth of the Church to the poor?

Is the debate over "women priests" the correct debate to hold?

Why do we need to be led by priests - of either sex ?

Why not think for ourselves?

Why can't we read the bible, the Torah, the Koran and decide for ourselves?





[QUOTE=olygirl;1301275]There's an interesting article in 20 Minuten about discontinuing religion lessons in public schools or replacing it as a philosophy instead.

In the poll, most people
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  #257  
Old 18.05.2012, 14:15
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Olygirl, do you teach the oneness of all the worlds 9 major monotheistic religions at your school? ...
The "oneness" of all the worlds religions is not a fact - it's another philosophy/religion.

Regarding religion lessons. In my area, the lessons are either the first lesson of the morning or afternoon, or the last lesson. That way, kids who don't attend can arrive/leave late or early.
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Old 18.05.2012, 14:23
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

My test? If religion leads to friendship, reason, logic and unity, accept it. If it leads to dogma, war and conflict, best to have no religion at all.


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Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross. An image/simulcram was put in his place and he was taken to heaven. They utterly deny the crucifixion of Jesus. The death and resurrection of Jesus are the centres of Christianity (Bultmann). Without it, you've got the Exemplar Christianity of the 17-19th Century, which was shown to be pretty worthless by the violence of the 20th century. (Moltmann).


My three kids have gone/are going through the Swiss education system. While your mileage may vary, what you describe is EXACTLY how the system works in our experience.

I know a few teachers who teach the RE classes - which parents may withdraw their kids from if they wish. At least from the protestants, they are forbidden to do anything except teach about Christianity, and general moral lessons that may be drawn from some of the story - Good Samaritan etc.

So what was the problem again?
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  #259  
Old 18.05.2012, 14:48
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Since those classes are optional and take place outside school hours (at least in our area) there is absolutely no reason why other religious groups cannot organise their own. In La Chaux-de-Fonds there has always been a strong Jewish community, and the synagogue does organise classes.

It a private and optional matter.
Yes and no. One of the main points is that it is regional as to when these lessons take place. In our local school the religion lesson is smack bang in the middle of the school day. I have a sneaky suspicion that this is aimed at making things as inconvenient as possible - there simply isn't enough time for the kids to get home for any length of time and back to school again (45 minutes). Most people prefer to conform.

I have just made an official complaint to the school because my son was forced to participate in a religious project day, which was a complete morning of school. We registered him with the school as being "without faith" and this was a clear breach of his rights to freedom of and from religion.
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Old 18.05.2012, 19:46
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Church and Sunday schools are the places for creationism.
No they are not. Creationism is a form of religious extremism, 99% of Christians can accept that the bible is full of allegories and not facts. They understand that the bible offers guidance without being factual and don't have the need to fight every scientist that conflicts with an translated and interpreted verse of the text... (I am not religious but do in fact enjoy to read religous texts as the bible from time to time.)

Creationism is a very extreme standpoint from some extreme evangelical streams of Christianity and there is no place for it in mainstream church. That the creationists managed to spread the message that religious people think their way is just wrong and does not do the intelligence of millions justice.
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