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  #261  
Old 18.05.2012, 20:36
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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No they are not. Creationism is a form of religious extremism, 99% of Christians can accept that the bible is full of allegories and not facts. They understand that the bible offers guidance without being factual and don't have the need to fight every scientist that conflicts with an translated and interpreted verse of the text...
I'm not going to pretend to know what the actual percentage is, but I can guarantee it's much lower than 99%. Just on this board you have some very smart people that take the Bible literally. And those are people that have actually thought about it.
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  #262  
Old 18.05.2012, 21:20
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Creationism may be taking things to the extreme, but its basic theory of how God created the earth, universe, etc., has been taught in Sunday schools for years.

The problem is the people who believe in Creationism and the literal truth of the Bible only select those parts which they want to believe in and ignore the rest of it. There are too many contradictions, additions, alterations and similarities to other religions of the era for it to be literally true. They also ignore history and the fact that Constantine ordered the then bishops of the fledging church to vote on whether Jesus was the Son of God or not. That doesn't sound like an all-powerful diety to me, more like an all-powerful Emperor who was determined to get his own way.
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  #263  
Old 18.05.2012, 22:15
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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It's still a theory of evolution, jerallie, even the scientists will tell you this. Admittedly to me, and millions of others in the world, it makes more sense than the religious explanation, but it's still a theory, not a fact.
So, here another "Theory" for you.
Classical_mechanics

Still sure that a theory is not covered by facts?
Maybe you just don't know what a theory is:
Scientific theory

Essential criteria for a scientific theory:

In practice, a body of descriptions of knowledge is usually only called a theory once it has a minimum empirical basis, according to certain criteria:
  • It is consistent with pre-existing theory, to the extent the pre-existing theory was experimentally verified, though it will often show pre-existing theory to be wrong in an exact sense.
  • It is supported by many strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation, ensuring it is probably a good approximation, if not totally correct.
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  #264  
Old 18.05.2012, 23:14
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

I didn't say a theory wasn't covered by facts. But I doubt you will be able to find a scientist who will say "the fact of evolution" or "the fact of relativity".
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  #265  
Old 19.05.2012, 07:35
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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...They also ignore history and the fact that Constantine ordered the then bishops of the fledging church to vote on whether Jesus was the Son of God or not. ...
Well it wasn't whether Jesus was the Son of God or not - that was accepted; rather whether he was divine.

What happened was that under Constantine, a council of Bishops drawn from across Christendom was convened in AD325 - this is the council of Nicea, which came up with the Nicean Crede, read in many churches. At the time a man called Arius said that the monotheism of God meant that Jesus could not be divine - this is Arianism. He said Jesus must be a created being, of a different category from the rest of creation. The title "Son of God" was merely an honorific from the Father. Athanasius said that if Arius were right, then Jesus could not offer salvation, as only God can save.

After much debate, the views of Athanasius prevailed, as being in accord with Scripture and church tradition - that is, it was continuous with practice and belief of Christians since the start of the church. Arianism was pronounced heresy. It still exists today among the Mormons and JWs.

A couple of centuries later, at the fourth great council, at Chalcedon, the humanity of Jesus was affirmed, that Jesus was of two natures, one divine, begotten from God, the other human, begotten from Mary.

I'm currently taking a theology degree and had exams in this stuff earlier this month. This is not religious dogma, but the general consensus of historians. You may not agree with the theology of Chalcedon or Nicea; but the fact is, Constantine convened Nicea because he wanted the bishops to sort out a problem that was threatening to tear the Church apart, and thus threatening the stability of Constantine's empire. Constantine himself, it appears, didn't care what the outcome was, so long as the issue was settled.
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  #266  
Old 19.05.2012, 08:52
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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I didn't say a theory wasn't covered by facts. But I doubt you will be able to find a scientist who will say "the fact of evolution" or "the fact of relativity".
You also won't find a scientist that refers to the fact of Pythagoras. So what is your point?
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  #267  
Old 19.05.2012, 09:59
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Creationism may be taking things to the extreme, but its basic theory of how God created the earth, universe, etc., has been taught in Sunday schools for years.

The problem is the people who believe in Creationism and the literal truth of the Bible only select those parts which they want to believe in and ignore the rest of it. There are too many contradictions, additions, alterations and similarities to other religions of the era for it to be literally true. They also ignore history and the fact that Constantine ordered the then bishops of the fledging church to vote on whether Jesus was the Son of God or not. That doesn't sound like an all-powerful diety to me, more like an all-powerful Emperor who was determined to get his own way.
The problem I have with creationism is the sheer size of the universe.

Why would God create something so huge that whatever technology we develop in the future we will never be able to visit 99.999999% of it.
It was obviously not created for us.

So if God is not the creator then what is the fundamental reason to worship Him?
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  #268  
Old 19.05.2012, 10:02
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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Well it wasn't whether Jesus was the Son of God or not - that was accepted; rather whether he was divine.

What happened was that under Constantine, a council of Bishops drawn from across Christendom was convened in AD325 - this is the council of Nicea, which came up with the Nicean Crede, read in many churches. At the time a man called Arius said that the monotheism of God meant that Jesus could not be divine - this is Arianism. He said Jesus must be a created being, of a different category from the rest of creation. The title "Son of God" was merely an honorific from the Father. Athanasius said that if Arius were right, then Jesus could not offer salvation, as only God can save.

After much debate, the views of Athanasius prevailed, as being in accord with Scripture and church tradition - that is, it was continuous with practice and belief of Christians since the start of the church. Arianism was pronounced heresy. It still exists today among the Mormons and JWs.

A couple of centuries later, at the fourth great council, at Chalcedon, the humanity of Jesus was affirmed, that Jesus was of two natures, one divine, begotten from God, the other human, begotten from Mary.

I'm currently taking a theology degree and had exams in this stuff earlier this month. This is not religious dogma, but the general consensus of historians. You may not agree with the theology of Chalcedon or Nicea; but the fact is, Constantine convened Nicea because he wanted the bishops to sort out a problem that was threatening to tear the Church apart, and thus threatening the stability of Constantine's empire. Constantine himself, it appears, didn't care what the outcome was, so long as the issue was settled.
Interesting, I did not know that.
So I suppose the Muslims also support Arianism or something similar in respect of Jesus? I mean he could not offer salvation.
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  #269  
Old 19.05.2012, 15:08
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Yes, but there were many other prophets in Jesus' time who were also called Son of God so he was simply one of many. By voting him a god/divine this made him unique and on a par with God. It's true Constantine was only interested in making sure things ran smoothly; he seems to have been quite happy to blur the lines between the official Sol Invictus, Mithras and fledgling Christianity religions simply because it was expedient for him to do so. There were many similarities between the three so Christianity adopted such things as Sunday for the day of rest and December 25th for Jesus' birthday from the others.

Arianism did not die out after the Council of Nicea's decision. Indeed it flourished in many places and the Catholic Church fought many battles against it, most notably the Albigensian Crusade in the south of present day France.

Marton, I believe Jesus is seen as a prophet, but as a sort of forerunner to Mohammed in Islam. I don't know that much about the religion so I maybe wrong on that.
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  #270  
Old 21.05.2012, 14:06
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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You also won't find a scientist that refers to the fact of Pythagoras. So what is your point?
I don't believe in triangles.
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  #271  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:21
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Once you understand that there is only one God who sends his messengers every thousand years to guide our evolution on this planet, you then can see how unity can arise.
Unfortunately, many are mislead by the religion they got from their parents, by the dogmas, traditions, ceremonies, rituals and prejudices, and do not think for themselves.
Some argue: " should women be priests?"
I say: why follow any priests these days, male or female? Why not think for yourself?
And don't forget, Christianity is considered paganism, by Jews and Moslems having divided the one God and jesus into three gods in 300 AD.
Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, it's why the Catholic church rejects her. She fled with their kids after the crucifixion to Marseilles.
Many icons of Mary with the infant are actually of Mary Magdalene with Hesus offspring.
All good Jewish boys had to marry in those days.
The wedding at which Jesus turned water into wine was his own wedding. Otherwise if he was a mere guest, why would he provide the food and drinks?





QUOTE=olygirl;1301275]There's an interesting article in 20 Minuten about discontinuing religion lessons in public schools or replacing it as a philosophy instead.

In the poll, most people felt religion lessons are outdated and many people felt it should be taught at home. Some people thought religion could be offered as an after-school course and others felt religion is still necessary for moral purposes.

If religion were discontinued at school, shouldn't Catholic / Protestant public holidays be abolished as well?

If it were left to the parents to teach their children religion, would Switzerland become a religious desert with churches having only a historical purpose or would it lean even more to the right as seen in the USA?

Personally, I like the way it is but realize for many parents, religion is a thorny issue.

Thoughts?

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...aess--18977762[/QUOTE]
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  #272  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:23
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Yes. The Albigensian crusade by Christians was to wipe out all the Jews there and eradicate all of Jesus family, who had fled there after the Crucifiction.






QUOTE=Medea Fleecestealer;1563029]Yes, but there were many other prophets in Jesus' time who were also called Son of God so he was simply one of many. By voting him a god/divine this made him unique and on a par with God. It's true Constantine was only interested in making sure things ran smoothly; he seems to have been quite happy to blur the lines between the official Sol Invictus, Mithras and fledgling Christianity religions simply because it was expedient for him to do so. There were many similarities between the three so Christianity adopted such things as Sunday for the day of rest and December 25th for Jesus' birthday from the others.

Arianism did not die out after the Council of Nicea's decision. Indeed it flourished in many places and the Catholic Church fought many battles against it, most notably the Albigensian Crusade in the south of present day France.

Marton, I believe Jesus is seen as a prophet, but as a sort of forerunner to Mohammed in Islam. I don't know that much about the religion so I maybe wrong on that.[/QUOTE]
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  #273  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:36
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Nicely said!
This is confirmed by the Koran also. The Koran states how Christianity was being corrupted, hence the crusades by the church against Islam.
Once people got the bible in English, after William Ryndale translated it, they discovered no references to the division of God into three as the church had stated.
This division of Jesus was a pagan belief, to attract and pacify pagans. A foul compromise.

However, if you consider the father, son and holy spirit as an immaculate Mirror reflecting the suns rays, you can accept its symbolicism. The sun never leaves the sky, but look into it and you see the rays, the holy spirit, reflecting the sun. Jesus heart was a pure mirror, reflecting god, the sun on earth.

Our own hearts should reflect the divine virtues of the sun also. That brings us closer to the Sun and to God and make us happy and content

In fact, all the messengers of God were mirrors, some of different size and effect, but all reflecting the same light from the same sun, albeit it at different eras and stages in our evolution.

By the way, a "day" in the bile is not 24 hours, but is the dawning of a new divine revelation.

God created the world in 6 days, each represents a messenger, on the seventh he rested, meaning his prophesies started to be fulfilled. The cheque could now be cashed.

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Well it wasn't whether Jesus was the Son of God or not - that was accepted; rather whether he was divine.

What happened was that under Constantine, a council of Bishops drawn from across Christendom was convened in AD325 - this is the council of Nicea, which came up with the Nicean Crede, read in many churches. At the time a man called Arius said that the monotheism of God meant that Jesus could not be divine - this is Arianism. He said Jesus must be a created being, of a different category from the rest of creation. The title "Son of God" was merely an honorific from the Father. Athanasius said that if Arius were right, then Jesus could not offer salvation, as only God can save.

After much debate, the views of Athanasius prevailed, as being in accord with Scripture and church tradition - that is, it was continuous with practice and belief of Christians since the start of the church. Arianism was pronounced heresy. It still exists today among the Mormons and JWs.

A couple of centuries later, at the fourth great council, at Chalcedon, the humanity of Jesus was affirmed, that Jesus was of two natures, one divine, begotten from God, the other human, begotten from Mary.

I'm currently taking a theology degree and had exams in this stuff earlier this month. This is not religious dogma, but the general consensus of historians. You may not agree with the theology of Chalcedon or Nicea; but the fact is, Constantine convened Nicea because he wanted the bishops to sort out a problem that was threatening to tear the Church apart, and thus threatening the stability of Constantine's empire. Constantine himself, it appears, didn't care what the outcome was, so long as the issue was settled.
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  #274  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:42
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

God has many virtues or attributes, 99 in all. Our purpose is to know him (with our brain) and to love him (with our hearts) to do his will as revealed by his messengers like Jesus and Mohammed and to help and serve others.
Today, work is elevated to service and prayer. the German verb, to earn , verdienen, comes from Dienen, to serve.
"I bear witness o my God, that thou has created me, to know thee and to love thee..."

=marton;1562929]The problem I have with creationism is the sheer size of the universe.

Why would God create something so huge that whatever technology we develop in the future we will never be able to visit 99.999999% of it.
It was obviously not created for us.

So if God is not the creator then what is the fundamental reason to worship Him?[/QUOTE]
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  #275  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:43
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Sorry, and of course, we worship God because he is the only thing WORTHY of worshipping....

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The problem I have with creationism is the sheer size of the universe.

Why would God create something so huge that whatever technology we develop in the future we will never be able to visit 99.999999% of it.
It was obviously not created for us.

So if God is not the creator then what is the fundamental reason to worship Him?
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  #276  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:45
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

Yes, I agree, many parts of the bible are obviously symbolic. Others are literal.
Only Gods next messengers can interpret and reveal the symbolic parts. If we try, we will be led astray.



QUOTE=Russkov;1562761]I'm not going to pretend to know what the actual percentage is, but I can guarantee it's much lower than 99%. Just on this board you have some very smart people that take the Bible literally. And those are people that have actually thought about it.[/QUOTE]
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  #277  
Old 27.05.2012, 12:46
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

I don't believe in evolution. Am I a heretic?


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I'm not going to pretend to know what the actual percentage is, but I can guarantee it's much lower than 99%. Just on this board you have some very smart people that take the Bible literally. And those are people that have actually thought about it.
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  #278  
Old 27.05.2012, 13:06
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

GarryBasel, why do you think there is only one God? Because the Bible, Koran and other current religious texts say so? Let's not forget that although we call the old Egyptian, Greek and Roman god/goddess stories myths today they were the religious beliefs of the time. For all we "know" they have as much validity as what people believe today.

And even a belief in one God, or many gods for that matter, will not bring unity because unfortuately everyone interprets what they believe differently. Now that would be fine, if only people didn't try to impose their beliefs on others which is why we have had so much religious conflict over the centuries.

Ah, another reader of "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". I have fond memories of my trips to the south of France on some of Henry Lincoln's tours.

And no, you're not a heretic because I'm quite happy for you to believe differently from me. Only if I tried to force you to believe as I do would you be a heretic to me.
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Old 27.05.2012, 13:22
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

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I don't believe in evolution. Am I a heretic?
No, it's a special kind of blindness combined with ignorance.
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Old 27.05.2012, 13:28
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Re: Should religion lessons in public schools be discontinued?

I like the way you think and I agree. Each religion is perfect, even paganism, for it's time and place. The pagans of today are the green parties, as pagans had much more respect for nature, ie the environment, than we do today.
I think we should all have a little pagan in us!
But what you are saying is that truth progresses and is relative. Each day we discover more and more. I agree. There is only one god because their is only one creation. One universe. One reality, albeit it experienced by each in his own rich way. One humanity. Many have tried to divide it, but unity is inevitable, because it is the only way to ensure our survival on our fragile planet which has nuclear weapons.
We see two concepts prevailing: claims to absolutism and claims to finality which divide us. Each Chrisitain sect dogmatically claims only theirs is correct
(intra-religious absolutism) and each religion rejects the one which appeared after it (inter- religious claim to finality) .

All have forgotten that unity and brotherhood of all people is our destiny.
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