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  #21  
Old 18.08.2009, 23:52
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Switzerland is different from many European countries as it has failed to make Swiss citizens of many of its migrant people.
Why should it make Swiss citizens of migrant people; what is this obligation?

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For years, it just cost a bomb to become Swiss and you had to take an exam and answer all sorts of impossible questions about the Swiss geography and history that nobody knows except those that had to take the exam !
Same in the UK now.


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So many of the so called "foreigners" are born in Switzerland and have done all their schooling there. Conservative forces wanted to make it hard to become Swiss and they managed to impose their views. Now they complain there are too many foreigners....
So you think just because you received an education in a country it gives you the privelige to citizenship?


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The truth is that Switzerland can't cope....without immigrants ! There are the ones who work on the building sites, in the tourism industry, as cheap labor on the fields, on the ever so low wages of the catering/hotel/restauration sector. Is it too muh demanding that their kids shouldn't be discriminated on race or religion when they search a professional training (apprentissage / Lehre) ?....
These immigrants that came to Switzerland to work didn't come as chained slaves; they came on their free will. They can also leave when they want. They cannot be that deprived that they realise they can have children and that they will get a good education and probably better than in their own birth place.
These immigrants that came would have known how they would be discriminated against (if that is how you want to define it - i.e. not and therefore not treated as Swiss citizens) and that children born in Switzerland would not be recognised as Swiss citizens. Immigrants should comply with the religious beliefs of a country and are aware of these when they enter the country.
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  #22  
Old 19.08.2009, 00:13
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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These immigrants that came to Switzerland to work didn't come as chained slaves; they came on their free will. They can also leave when they want. They cannot be that deprived that they realise they can have children and that they will get a good education and probably better than in their own birth place.
These immigrants that came would have known how they would be discriminated against (if that is how you want to define it - i.e. not and therefore not treated as Swiss citizens) and that children born in Switzerland would not be recognised as Swiss citizens. Immigrants should comply with the religious beliefs of a country and are aware of these when they enter the country.
<> They got to Switzerland out of the economic misery of the Mediterranean of the 1950ies to 1970ies, and that is not really "free will" but economic pressure
<> To "leave when they want" is bad humour. Particularily the Arab countries and Turkey do not hold either jobs or lodgings ready for returnees, except for retiring people
<> The Secondos have grown up in Switzerland and feel Switzerland to be "home" regardless of which country they happen to be citizens of
<> Most immigrants in Switzerland in regard to religion comply with the laws in force ... Switzerland does not have "religious beliefs" nationally, and so, your argument is irrelevant
<> fact still is that foreigners in larger cities will find it far easier to get citizenship than foreigners in small remote villages. BUT the major point is that both Swiss Federal laws and the various Cantonal laws prescribe a relatively long time until somebody can apply for citizenship.
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Old 19.08.2009, 01:54
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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<> of cares set on fire ? Vandalism also in Switzerland is a problem. And it also is connected to "natives" and is not an "immigration problem". Interesting however is that the Swiss population, in many public (fully binding ! ) votes has for years supported a strong police force. This, in spite of problems, generally pays off.
<> crowded public transport systems ? The public transport system depend on the readiness of people and its politicians to spend money and to improve and expand the systems. The SVP is not exactly famous for its support of public transport
<> bombed to ? do you refer to terrorists ? the share of terrorism, for instance in France, if compared to quite "normal vandalism and madness" in reality is exceedingly small ....... beside the point that many terrorists enter as "tourists" or simply illegally.
<> to regard somebody with an "ic" or "ich" or "icz" at the end of the family name is not "hire on ability" but simply rubbish. Good and modern companies in fact do not care about such things, but indeed concentrate on ability. Just look at the many specialists in big corporations whose names to "Westerners" sound like "Simsalabim" but whose abilities are not disputed.
<> you indeed can rest your "case" as it is no case really
You misunderstood my post. I meant to convey the point that these things would happen if the Swiss did indeed liberalize immigration and citizenship laws to the same extent as the UK, France, and various other EU countries have done. The reference to burning cars was to the troubles in France a few years back. Bombing of public transport by Muslim terrorists happened in Spain and the UK very recently. All these countries have a more open door to peoples from drastically different cultures gaining residence and citizenship than Switzerland does. I was praising Switzerland for being more selective and discriminatory with regard to immigration policy.
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  #24  
Old 19.08.2009, 09:13
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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<> They got to Switzerland out of the economic misery of the Mediterranean of the 1950ies to 1970ies, and that is not really "free will" but economic pressure..
Exactly; life in Switzerland was better than where they were.

Ask yourself the reason that there are so many immigrants hanging around in Calais trying to get in the UK. The reason is that the UK is cushier than France for benefits and jobs. Doesn't mean that the UK should let them in or give them British Nationality.

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To "leave when they want" is bad humour. Particularily the Arab countries and Turkey do not hold either jobs or lodgings ready for returnees, except for retiring people.
Why should there be a job and accomodation automatically given to a returnee if there aren't any?


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The Secondos have grown up in Switzerland and feel Switzerland to be "home" regardless of which country they happen to be citizens of
Their parents told them that when they were children, so they should noy have false expectations. In fact, if and when they leave they have the advantage of a good education and cultural experience.

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Most immigrants in Switzerland in regard to religion comply with the laws in force ... Switzerland does not have "religious beliefs" nationally, and so, your argument is irrelevant
Switzerland does to a certain extent. Catholic and Protestant - to me being Western European Religions. Immigrants comply at the moment but become more and more demanding as we have seen again in the UK.

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BUT the major point is that both Swiss Federal laws and the various Cantonal laws prescribe a relatively long time until somebody can apply for citizenship.
It should be a privilige to gain citizenship of a country and it should be earned and therefore take a long time and there should be no gurantee.

Perhaps Wollishofener, you could explain to me the reason a country should give out Nationality nilly willy to immigrants?

You can tell me all the crap you like that immigrnats bring economic wealth with their expertise etc etc. This might be relevant for your professor in stem cell research etc etc. but helping construct a building doesn't.
The trouble I see in the UK is that a lot of immigrants came to the UK to work hard. They spend nothing in the UK but send their monies back to their homeland (rightly or wrongly). Later on they realise the state system is easy and milk it for benefits. In other words they have no respect for the UK, so why should they have a right to Nationality, knock out some off-spring who then know and don't want to know any other way of living. That is the reason the UK is now in such a mess and that is one of the reasons that I have chosen Switzerland to live in.
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  #25  
Old 19.08.2009, 11:08
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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You misunderstood my post. I meant to convey the point that these things would happen if the Swiss did indeed liberalize immigration and citizenship laws to the same extent as the UK, France, and various other EU countries have done. The reference to burning cars was to the troubles in France a few years back. Bombing of public transport by Muslim terrorists happened in Spain and the UK very recently. All these countries have a more open door to peoples from drastically different cultures gaining residence and citizenship than Switzerland does. I was praising Switzerland for being more selective and discriminatory with regard to immigration policy.
You mention the point in question without realising it. Switzerland, in spite of its rigid and strict regulations, has a far higher share of people from "different cultures" than France or the U.K. already. THIS exactly is the reason why also liberal open-minded people in Switzerland support restrictions, rather "contre-coeur" but without having an alternative. It is not yielding to the xenophobes and Blocherites, it is yielding to realities. And I earned an outcry from a "Balkanese" in the Balkans on another forum when I made it clear that Swiss regard the Balkanese folks as the most weird of "other cultures" and rather like Tamils and Vietnamese. And in reality, a vast proportion of people with origin in "drastically different cultures" already have Swiss citizenship. In general, the immigration things in Switzerland are not "selective" really but restrictive.
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  #26  
Old 19.08.2009, 12:28
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Bombing of public transport by Muslim terrorists happened in Spain and the UK very recently. All these countries have a more open door to peoples from drastically different cultures gaining residence and citizenship than Switzerland does. I was praising Switzerland for being more selective and discriminatory with regard to immigration policy.
Not only that but they have more problems with political correctness and certain things being unspeakable outside of pubs and a close circle of friends. Many people I've talked to both in the UK and Spain have expressed opinions that I'm sure they wouldn't dare stand up and broadcast in public. Public opinion overall isn't too different in these countries than it is here in Switzerland. But what is different is the ability to expres that opinion. Not being able to address certain topics makes a frank an honest debate about them very difficult. If you can't talk about a problem you can't solve it. I'm no fan of the SVP but their ability to put their finger right where it hurts means that the other parties cannot sit and ignore problems the way they do in other countries.
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Old 19.08.2009, 12:49
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Not only that but they have more problems with political correctness and certain things being unspeakable outside of pubs and a close circle of friends. Many people I've talked to both in the UK and Spain have expressed opinions that I'm sure they wouldn't dare stand up and broadcast in public. Public opinion overall isn't too different in these countries than it is here in Switzerland. But what is different is the ability to expres that opinion. Not being able to address certain topics makes a frank an honest debate about them very difficult. If you can't talk about a problem you can't solve it. I'm no fan of the SVP but their ability to put their finger right where it hurts means that the other parties cannot sit and ignore problems the way they do in other countries.
I see exactly that in the UK with PC and NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

That is why I have been concerned about Switzerland joining the EEC and the immigation situation.
I personally (I don't care saying it) was against Switzerland opening its doors to anyone in the EEC having the right to work in Switzerland.
So what benefit is it to Switzerland. Wow! It gives the right for Swiss citizens to go and work in the EEC.
We are talking about Switzerland with a population of 7 Million - actually 5.6 Million citizens as 20% are foreign to swap opportunities with over 300 Million EEC people moving into over-populated Switzerland.
It doesn't stack up to me and Switzerland will regret it within 20 years.
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  #28  
Old 19.08.2009, 12:51
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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I see exactly that in the UK with PC and NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

That is why I have been concerned about Switzerland joining the EEC and the immigation situation.
I personally (I don't care saying it) was against Switzerland opening its doors to anyone in the EEC having the right to work in Switzerland.
So what benefit is it to Switzerland. Wow! It gives the right for Swiss citizens to go and work in the EEC.
We are talking about Switzerland with a population of 7 Million - actually 5.6 Million citizens as 20% are foreign to swap opportunities with over 300 Million EEC people.
It doesn't stack up to me and Switzerland will regret it within 20 years.
Some inaccuracies - the EEC does not exist anymore.

The EU has 500 million citizens.


L.
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Old 19.08.2009, 12:56
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

I am not European, and I am not a favored race of the system here and I can definitely feel it. But I still think Switzerland is right in not joining the EU, and it is within the citizens' common sense to reject the opening of doors to the whole EU.
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  #30  
Old 19.08.2009, 13:07
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Some inaccuracies - the EEC does not exist anymore.

The EU has 500 million citizens.


L.
If you want to be pedantic; you are correct the EU; and 500 Million is "over 300 Million".

But you got the point then.

I actually didn't realise there were so many in the EU because I always laugh about businesses wanting to sell to the USA and tell them that the EU is a bigger market and logistically better as well as population more dense.
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  #31  
Old 19.08.2009, 13:35
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

I’m sorry but the system of affording Swiss nationality to foreigners is a major problem. Calling it racist would imply that it discriminates against a specific group or groups, which is another issue. The fact is however that around five years ago there were two national referendums as to whether the process should be simplified (not abolished, but simplified) for second and third generation foreigners, ie individuals born here and individuals born to foreigners who were born here. Shockingly both options were turned down.

Switzerland’s an immigrant land so the percentage of foreigners will be high. However if, as in certain areas, the percentage of foreigners is around the 40% mark that shows that the Swiss policy is failing.

In fairness, it does also seem ridiculous that an adult born to foreign parents, who has been through the Swiss school system and has a C permit is regarded as a foreigner. I also cannot see the benefit of leaving these secondos in a kind of limbo, they all have the C-permit so they’re not going anywhere, yet they’re denied a Swiss passport and the opportunity to participate in the democratic tradition Switzerland’s so proud of.
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Old 19.08.2009, 13:49
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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In fairness, it does also seem ridiculous that an adult born to foreign parents, who has been through the Swiss school system and has a C permit is regarded as a foreigner. I also cannot see the benefit of leaving these secondos in a kind of limbo, they all have the C-permit so they’re not going anywhere, yet they’re denied a Swiss passport and the opportunity to participate in the democratic tradition Switzerland’s so proud of.
So what would be the best option : giving the passport to the secondos at their birth or if they request it ?

In my experience, few people who request the citizenship do it for the political rights (or duties depend how you see it). And I have been working in a town that was barely under the 50% of foreigners.
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  #33  
Old 19.08.2009, 14:10
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

It's actually quite easy and cheap for those foreigners who were born in Switzerland or went to school here to obtain the Swiss citizenship. Many of them just think that they don't need it as they already hold an EU-passport.
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Old 19.08.2009, 14:14
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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It's actually quite easy and cheap for those foreigners who were born in Switzerland or went to school here to obtain the Swiss citizenship. Many of them just think that they don't need it as they already hold an EU-passport.
Correct, they do not need citizenship. It amuses however, me to hear Europeans call fellow-Europeans "foreigners".



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Old 19.08.2009, 14:27
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Correct, they do not need citizenship. It amuses however, me to hear Europeans call fellow-Europeans "foreigners".



Larry
Thats because they come from another country Larry, "foreign to this country". Europe is simply a collection of individual nation states that have agreed a protocol for some, but certainly not all, of their international activities.

It's the World Athletics Championship's at the moment, imagine how mundane it would be if we were trying to get our athletes into the "Europe" team to take on the "Americas" team.

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Old 19.08.2009, 14:31
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Thats because they come from another country Larry, "foreign to this country". Europe is simply a collection of individual nation states that have agreed a protocol for some, but certainly not all, of their international activities.

It's the World Athletics Championship's at the moment, imagine how mundane it would be if we were trying to get our athletes into the "Europe" team to take on the "Americas" team.

Mike

I have thought of this, I would think it would be anything but mundane. Using your example, look at the pool of quality athletes we could draw on. Would also help the European "us" sentiment.



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Old 19.08.2009, 14:32
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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I’m sorry but the system of affording Swiss nationality to foreigners is a major problem. Calling it racist would imply that it discriminates against a specific group or groups, which is another issue. The fact is however that around five years ago there were two national referendums as to whether the process should be simplified (not abolished, but simplified) for second and third generation foreigners, ie individuals born here and individuals born to foreigners who were born here. Shockingly both options were turned down.
Why is that shocking and isn't it nice to see democracy working?

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Switzerland’s an immigrant land so the percentage of foreigners will be high. However if, as in certain areas, the percentage of foreigners is around the 40% mark that shows that the Swiss policy is failing.
Just proves that foreigners don't need Swiss Nationality, there are plenty still in Switzerland despite it "being such a racist place".

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In fairness, it does also seem ridiculous that an adult born to foreign parents, who has been through the Swiss school system and has a C permit is regarded as a foreigner. I also cannot see the benefit of leaving these secondos in a kind of limbo, they all have the C-permit so they’re not going anywhere, yet they’re denied a Swiss passport and the opportunity to participate in the democratic tradition Switzerland’s so proud of.
The Swiss people could always have a referendum to vote let foreigners with C permits "participate in the democratic tradition". (I think I know which way the vote would go.)
So why do they need to give Swiss Nationality to foreigners that understand that they are foreigners, not entitled to Swiss Nationality or to vote?
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Old 19.08.2009, 14:38
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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I have thought of this, I would think it would be anything but mundane. Using your example, look at the pool of quality athletes we could draw on. Would also help the European "us" sentiment.

Larry
Explain the importance of the "European us sentiment" please?
Don't you think it is better that the countries in Europe have some individuality. Isn't this the reason we get tourists from the USA touring europe to see the different cultures which if the EU had its way we would sort of loose.
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  #39  
Old 19.08.2009, 14:41
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

That's an interesting concept. Do any of the Swiss contingent know if this was ever a topic?
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The Swiss people could always have a referendum to vote let foreigners with C permits "participate in the democratic tradition". (I think I know which way the vote would go.)
So why do they need to give Swiss Nationality to foreigners that understand that they are foreigners, not entitled to Swiss Nationality or to vote?
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Old 19.08.2009, 14:43
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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That's an interesting concept. Do any of the Swiss contingent know if this was ever a topic?
On federal level, I can bet not. Not on cantonal and municipal level it is already the case.
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