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Old 13.09.2007, 13:35
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The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

... reports the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6992670.stm
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Old 13.09.2007, 13:49
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

pedantic I know, but article is talking about "naturalisation" ... the immigration piece has been done to death, over & over, but this new thread will let a lot of people expunge some fresh bile ....

so thanks ...
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Old 13.09.2007, 15:14
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

This it not new. The report was published last year and is now subject to debate. See this published in March.
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Old 06.08.2009, 18:27
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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This it not new. The report was published last year and is now subject to debate. See this published in March.

---
well nothing has changed though.
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Old 06.08.2009, 18:30
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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This it not new. The report was published last year and is now subject to debate. See this published in March.
Neither is the article the OP posted. It's from 2007.
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Old 07.08.2009, 00:21
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

I am astonished to see such a faulty report in BBC. Procedures differ from community to community and from Canton to Canton. In most cities and towns, no such voting is done. What the BBC journalist describes is the procedure done in villages. But a majority of the population of Switzerland lives in towns and cities of more than 10'000 inhabitants.

That many villagers are xenophobe is of course undeniable, but again, the report is ways beside the facts.
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Old 07.08.2009, 00:38
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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I am astonished to see such a faulty report in BBC.
Never be surprised to see half-arsed research, missing-the-point analysis and general uselessness on the BBC.

I gave up on them years ago for anything but the headlines.

Lord Reith must be turning in his grave.
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Old 07.08.2009, 22:35
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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After that, they must often be approved by the entire voting community, in a secret ballot, or a show of hands. This practice, the report says, is particularly likely to be distorted by racial discrimination.
The municipal ballot was abandoned in 2003 already, when the Swiss courts ruled that decisions made this way are not valid.
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Old 09.08.2009, 01:08
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

If you think only remote villagers are racist, maybe it would be useful to remind you all that the largest party in Switzerland is the UDC and that focuses mainly on scapegoating immigrants.
Naturalisation is one thing, the whole general immigration system is anothere and there is wide evidence that it is indeed racist and /or strongly xenophobic. There is for example no legal response to race discrimination on the job or race or nationality discrimination during the hiring process. Which is pretty bad for a country where about 20 % of its inhabitant are not Swiss citizens.
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Old 09.08.2009, 01:09
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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If you think only remote villagers are racist...
Who said that?

Nobody in this thread, so far as I can see...
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Old 09.08.2009, 04:13
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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If you think only remote villagers are racist, maybe it would be useful to remind you all that the largest party in Switzerland is the UDC and that focuses mainly on scapegoating immigrants.
Naturalisation is one thing, the whole general immigration system is anothere and there is wide evidence that it is indeed racist and /or strongly xenophobic. There is for example no legal response to race discrimination on the job or race or nationality discrimination during the hiring process. Which is pretty bad for a country where about 20 % of its inhabitant are not Swiss citizens.
Don't get me wrong; I am by no means racist or generally oriented to the right side of the political spectrum. But still I absolutely fail to understand such a statement. On one hand you clearly state that one fifth of the population is composed of foreigners, on the other hand that's not enough of a sign for "thorough" integration, you find it offending that we do not integrate a percentage of maybe.. 40% (yet)? But we should also improve our "legal" response for racial discrimation in hiring processes?

What kind of logic is that? In comparison: A few years back Italy almost starts an outrage in regards of immigration percentages... even though.. they don't even have an immigration level of 5%. How about the UK? 8.9% in 2005 statistics? - Well, looks like theres quite some gap to fill until we reach that whopping, missing 10-11% until being on-par @ around 20%.

Considering that Switzerland is quite a small country - and quite popular for immigration, with a population of something above 7 million inhabitants, bordering Italy, France and Germany... In such a situation "Xenophobia" might be quite a reasonable and healthy reaction. We have pharmaceutical companies filled with Englishmen, and also German workforce is taking quite a leap.

So what more do you expect? 100% Guaranteed Friendly reactions? 100% non-racial job-guarantee programs or something? - I really love cultural richness. I know turks, albanians, english people.. southamericans.. it really doesn't matter, and by no means am I racist or a discriminating person. It just comes down to being reasonable.

Such a small country just can't cope with an infinite number of immigrants. There is a limited number of jobs and a limited amount of welfare / social budget. And therefore it is natural for any reasonable swiss citizen to reflect about his own future, and the future situation of this country.
Becos it is just too easy to distract the public by causing distress, unemployment.. caused by an unhealthy amount of immigration.
I'm really not looking forward to a social and political situation which is developping itself in Germany or the UK right now. I don't want HartzIV. I don't want any laws which wouldn't guarantee a minimum loan-level... I'm not looking forward to any of this political crap surfacing the past few years... even in Switzerland.

Therefore in regards of Immigration I believe the typical left-wing depiction of the oh so friendly need of the Swiss to integrate more and more people and having a need for foreigners for whatever reasons, is just erroneous and leads into a completely wrong direction. It's not realistic and pretty much naive. Not saying that the SVP or whatever parties care much about us either... But anyway.

So what exactly do you expect from Switzerland with such a statement. Unless it is natural egoism, i.e. taking a stance for your personal benefit, I would really like to know. And I won't disrespect you for this stance. Just don't you expect a different attitude from swiss citizens either.

Our reactions are absolutely reasonable and natural.
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Old 09.08.2009, 12:00
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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If you think only remote villagers are racist, maybe it would be useful to remind you all that the largest party in Switzerland is the UDC and that focuses mainly on scapegoating immigrants.
Usual 'Swiss are racist' mantra....

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Naturalisation is one thing, the whole general immigration system is anothere and there is wide evidence that it is indeed racist and /or strongly xenophobic.
And why shouldn't it be? One as a migrant should be aware that he will never be treated the same way as in his own country. As an immigrant he will always be tagged as a 'second class' citizen. System should promote/force naturalisation and weed out 'ghetto' effect.

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There is for example no legal response to race discrimination on the job or race or nationality discrimination during the hiring process.
Why should there be any artificial 'anti-discrimination' law? I hire who I want to and who I like to, etc. Such 'anti-discrimination' laws in fact are discriminatory for others - companies, landlords, locals, etc.

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Which is pretty bad for a country where about 20 % of its inhabitant are not Swiss citizens.
Again? Why is it bad? If the conditions for immigrants are not that good they will either not choose Switzerland (which will probably have some effect on the economy) or they will put more effort into naturalisation.
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Old 17.08.2009, 10:24
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Who said that?

Nobody in this thread, so far as I can see...
You right. I was reacting to Wollishofened post where it is stated that "that many villagers are xenophobic is of course undeniable". It seemed to me that it could induce the idea that only villagers are racist in CH, whereas it is a wellspread phenomenon, that includes even the largest cities.
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Old 17.08.2009, 10:45
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Don't get me wrong; I am by no means racist or generally oriented to the right side of the political spectrum. But still I absolutely fail to understand such a statement. On one hand you clearly state that one fifth of the population is composed of foreigners, on the other hand that's not enough of a sign for "thorough" integration, you find it offending that we do not integrate a percentage of maybe.. 40% (yet)? But we should also improve our "legal" response for racial discrimation in hiring processes?
(...)

Such a small country just can't cope with an infinite number of immigrants. There is a limited number of jobs and a limited amount of welfare / social budget. And therefore it is natural for any reasonable swiss citizen to reflect about his own future, and the future situation of this country.
Becos it is just too easy to distract the public by causing distress, unemployment.. caused by an unhealthy amount of immigration.
I'm really not looking forward to a social and political situation which is developping itself in Germany or the UK right now. I don't want HartzIV. I don't want any laws which wouldn't guarantee a minimum loan-level... I'm not looking forward to any of this political crap surfacing the past few years... even in Switzerland.

(...)
So what exactly do you expect from Switzerland with such a statement. Unless it is natural egoism, i.e. taking a stance for your personal benefit, I would really like to know. And I won't disrespect you for this stance. Just don't you expect a different attitude from swiss citizens either.

Our reactions are absolutely reasonable and natural.
Switzerland is different from many European countries as it has failed to make Swiss citizens of many of its migrant people. For years, it just cost a bomb to become Swiss and you had to take an exam and answer all sorts of impossible questions about the Swiss geography and history that nobody knows except those that had to take the exam ! So many of the so called "foreigners" are born in Switzerland and have done all their schooling there. Conservative forces wanted to make it hard to become Swiss and they managed to impose their views. Now they complain there are too many foreigners....
The truth is that Switzerland can't cope....without immigrants ! There are the ones who work on the building sites, in the tourism industry, as cheap labor on the fields, on the ever so low wages of the catering/hotel/restauration sector. Is it too muh demanding that their kids shouldn't be discriminated on race or religion when they search a professional training (apprentissage / Lehre) ?

I too would hate HARTZ IV. And indeed I would like Switzerland to have a minimum wage legislation (which we HAVEN't GOT YET). And yes I think we must fight unemployment. Where I disagree completely with you is in the idea that immigration has anything to do with unemployment or the vast social inequalities in this country.
I am a Swiss citizen. And I know some share my views and some others don't.
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Old 17.08.2009, 10:59
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Usual 'Swiss are racist' mantra....

And why shouldn't it be? One as a migrant should be aware that he will never be treated the same way as in his own country. As an immigrant he will always be tagged as a 'second class' citizen. System should promote/force naturalisation and weed out 'ghetto' effect.

Why should there be any artificial 'anti-discrimination' law? I hire who I want to and who I like to, etc. Such 'anti-discrimination' laws in fact are discriminatory for others - companies, landlords, locals, etc. (...)
Well I happen to think that they should be no "second class" citizen, that every human being is entitled to the same rights and respect. This is what I believe in, the values I got from my religious upbringing. Some think differently, but this is my stance.

I don't do mantra. I DO FACTS. UDC/SVP is an important party in CH and it promotes xenophobic policies.

Is "anti-discrimination"law "discriminatory" for others ? I don't believe so. The person with the best qualification gets the job. But it does restrain the rights of companies or landlord to do whatever they want in their business or proprety. Yet why not if these restrictions are for the general benefit of the population ?
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Old 18.08.2009, 11:13
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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You right. I was reacting to Wollishofened post where it is stated that "that many villagers are xenophobic is of course undeniable". It seemed to me that it could induce the idea that only villagers are racist in CH, whereas it is a wellspread phenomenon, that includes even the largest cities.
A) xenophobic and racist are not the same, whenever similar
B) the share of xenophobes in rural areas IS higher than in urban ones, as proven by countless public votes
C) that you can find racists also in the cities is clear
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Old 18.08.2009, 20:28
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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Well I happen to think that they should be no "second class" citizen, that every human being is entitled to the same rights and respect. This is what I believe in, the values I got from my religious upbringing. Some think differently, but this is my stance.

I don't do mantra. I DO FACTS. UDC/SVP is an important party in CH and it promotes xenophobic policies.

Is "anti-discrimination"law "discriminatory" for others ? I don't believe so. The person with the best qualification gets the job. But it does restrain the rights of companies or landlord to do whatever they want in their business or proprety. Yet why not if these restrictions are for the general benefit of the population ?
And these "benefits to the population" are?????

Thousands of cars being set on fire all over the country??
Crowded public transport systems being bombed to smiterhins, resulting in the deaths of many innocents?
Businesses being forced to hire based on everything under the sun except ability to do the job, which would make that famous Swiss quality of its products and services a thing of the past?

I could make many more valid points, but I think I can rest my case at this time.
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Old 18.08.2009, 21:46
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

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And these "benefits to the population" are?????

Thousands of cars being set on fire all over the country??
Crowded public transport systems being bombed to smiterhins, resulting in the deaths of many innocents?
Businesses being forced to hire based on everything under the sun except ability to do the job, which would make that famous Swiss quality of its products and services a thing of the past?

I could make many more valid points, but I think I can rest my case at this time.
<> of cares set on fire ? Vandalism also in Switzerland is a problem. And it also is connected to "natives" and is not an "immigration problem". Interesting however is that the Swiss population, in many public (fully binding ! ) votes has for years supported a strong police force. This, in spite of problems, generally pays off.
<> crowded public transport systems ? The public transport system depend on the readiness of people and its politicians to spend money and to improve and expand the systems. The SVP is not exactly famous for its support of public transport
<> bombed to ? do you refer to terrorists ? the share of terrorism, for instance in France, if compared to quite "normal vandalism and madness" in reality is exceedingly small ....... beside the point that many terrorists enter as "tourists" or simply illegally.
<> to regard somebody with an "ic" or "ich" or "icz" at the end of the family name is not "hire on ability" but simply rubbish. Good and modern companies in fact do not care about such things, but indeed concentrate on ability. Just look at the many specialists in big corporations whose names to "Westerners" sound like "Simsalabim" but whose abilities are not disputed.
<> you indeed can rest your "case" as it is no case really
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Old 18.08.2009, 21:49
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

Most white-skinned, "original" UK citizens are probably racist too and would love to have their country to themselves again. This is probably the result of an incompetent "open the flood gates and let everyone in" immigration policy by successive governments. Maybe the Swiss method of being somewhat choosier is not such a bad thing. Also, bear in mind that 18% of the Swiss population is foreigh. That is not such a shabby ratio....

The problem is that whilst the SVP are perhaps justified in proposing more restrictive policies, the way they portray themselves does untold damage. I am not a great fan of their black sheep/crow posters. They are far to aggressive to appeal to a majority of mainstream Swiss voters. If they toned down the rhetoric but kept to the general message they might do far better than they do. Enoch Powell was not too far wide of the mark, he just didn't couch his message in a manner that was tolerable to the government he was part of at the time.

Having once considered emigrating to the US and to Canada, I can tell you that Switzerland is not so bad.....
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Old 18.08.2009, 23:09
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Re: The Swiss immigration system is 'racist'...

I DO hope that Notallthere will have the decency to post and explain why my post deserved a groan. I am waiting with baited breath....
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