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Old 24.08.2011, 22:38
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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apples have been around in the region for a very long time, way before 1492, a useful link:

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/maia/history.html
Nonsense. They just made it all up. Is that a joke website? An academic version of the Onion?

The apple was introduced to Europe by returning conquistadors in the early 15th century. Before then, Europeans had been obliged to use a kind of large plum, which they called the 'apple', but it wasn't an apple as we might understand it.

The American apple was so popular that the indigenous 'apple' became extinct, as nobody could be bothered to cultivate it any more. It attracted snakes, anyway, so it's no surprise that everybody went over to the new fruit from the New World.

These chaps also brought tobacco, potatoes, tomatoes and syphilis. I bet your website thinks they're all European, too.
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Old 24.08.2011, 22:42
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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I guess half the voters in the US sometimes vote for the Republicans from time to time. That'll be how you got Republican presidents an' all...
No, you get US Rebublican presidents because the alternatives SUCK even MORE!

Funny, in CH I vote for people I LIKE!

In the US, it was always voting for the person I disliked the LEAST!

Tom
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  #43  
Old 24.08.2011, 22:46
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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The US system was inspired from the Swiss one.
Sorry, but it's backwards.

The CH constitution of 1848 was influenced by the US constitution of 1787, i.e. 61 years earlier!

Tom
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Old 24.08.2011, 22:50
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Sorry, but it's backwards.

The CH constitution of 1848 was influenced by the US constitution of 1787, i.e. 61 years earlier!

Tom
No you're incorrect. Read the rest if the thread. Wolli gives a better explanation than I do. Get your facts straight.
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Old 24.08.2011, 22:52
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Basically YES ! Except that the SVP is right of the centre of the US Republican Party. It ranges from the Republican Party centre out to the Tea Party
Strange, I view the Tea Party as more center, and the Republicans to the right of the SVP!

Tom
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Old 24.08.2011, 22:52
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Get your facts straight.
Yes. I'm a great believer in getting my facts straight out of my head.
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Old 24.08.2011, 22:55
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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No you're incorrect. Read the rest if the thread. Wolli gives a better explanation than I do. Get your facts straight.
Well, before 1848, there was no Swiss senate, house of representatives, as exists now, this was all inspired by the US!

Swiss Federal Constitution of 1848

After the defeat of the "Sonderbund" alliance the liberals used the opportunity to strengthen central power in Switzerland. They were prudent enough, however, to allow cantons extensive rights of self-determination, particularly in areas that had proven to be delicate (e.g. education). Now basic principles of the constitution of the U.S.A. were adopted:
  • Declaration of fundamental individual rights
  • Two chamber parliament with "Nationalrat" [national council = house of representatives, initially one member per 20,000 inhabitants (1848: 111 seats, 1850: 120 seats), later the number of members was fixed on 200] and "Ständerat" [council of states = senate, two members per canton]. While big cantons dominate "Nationalrat", the smaller cantons may block legislation in "Ständerat"
  • Federal government "Bundesrat", 7 members with equal rights, elected by the parliament. While every member is responsible to lead a part of the administration, important decisions will be taken by majority. The presidency is rotating yearly and gives opportunities to hold speaches rather than special powers. [Note: the German word "Bundesrat" is also used to denote the German and Austrian equivalent of the senate, therefore some dictionaries will translate Bundesrat = Upper House of Parliament]
  • A federal court of justice should settle disputes between the cantons (today the cantons always solve their problems in negociations, but individuals and companies appeal to the federal court, if they are not willing to accept judgement of cantonal courts - so it's judgements help to unify the interpretation of laws by cantonal courts).
  • Alliances with foreign powers, decisions on war and peace, customs, postal services and coinage became federal responsabilities. Local toll station on some 400 roads and bridges within Switzerland were closed in 1849, the Swiss Franc was reestablished as common currency in 1850.
The new constitution was accepted with a majority of 15½ cantons (including Lucerne!). Berne was designed as the federal capital.

Tom
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Old 24.08.2011, 22:56
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Yes. I'm a great believer in getting my facts straight out of my head.
Get your facts straight first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. ~Mark Twain
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  #49  
Old 24.08.2011, 22:59
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Nonsense. They just made it all up. Is that a joke website? An academic version of the Onion?

The apple was introduced to Europe by returning conquistadors in the early 15th century. Before then, Europeans had been obliged to use a kind of large plum, which they called the 'apple', but it wasn't an apple as we might understand it.

The American apple was so popular that the indigenous 'apple' became extinct, as nobody could be bothered to cultivate it any more. It attracted snakes, anyway, so it's no surprise that everybody went over to the new fruit from the New World.

These chaps also brought tobacco, potatoes, tomatoes and syphilis. I bet your website thinks they're all European, too.
You could read more scientific papers on the subject as well, but it does not seem as if you are all that interested in the actual facts.

The potato does indeed come from the North American continent; but I suspect this is the wrong thread for a discussion on the origins of various species of fruit - difficult to link up with the original subject of the thread.
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Old 24.08.2011, 23:01
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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We all know the bible speaks of the apple with Adam and Eve---I KNOW no one can argue that :P
OH!!! Now the Jews invented Apple Pie. When will this madness end!!!!!
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Old 24.08.2011, 23:02
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Well, before 1848, there was no Swiss senate, house of representatives, as exists now, this was all inspired by the US!

Tom
Where do you think the idea of a Federal government with states came from ? ( form of government in which a union of states recognizes the sovereignty of a central authority while retaining certain residual powers of government)
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Old 24.08.2011, 23:02
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I suspect this is the wrong thread for a discussion on the origins of various species of fruit
... or the origins of baseball, apple pie and pizza?
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  #53  
Old 24.08.2011, 23:09
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Where do you think the idea of a Federal government with states came from ? ( form of government in which a union of states recognizes the sovereignty of a central authority while retaining certain residual powers of government)
Ummm, Rome?

"The Senate of the United States was formed on the example of the ancient Roman Senate."

Tom
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Old 24.08.2011, 23:32
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Yes. I'm a great believer in getting my facts straight out of my head.
I consider it deeply homophobic and offensive to tell people to get their facts straight.
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Old 24.08.2011, 23:34
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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The potato does indeed come from the North American continent;
Humbug. The Belgians invented them. Read Asterix.
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  #56  
Old 25.08.2011, 05:13
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Ummm, Rome?

"The Senate of the United States was formed on the example of the ancient Roman Senate."

Tom
Rome most certainly was not a federal state. The old "Swiss" confederation however was organized as a federal state. In those times every canton sent deputies to the Tagsatzung (governing body that had both legislative and executive powers, but whose power was limited, leaving most to the cantons).

The cantons and Associates (close allies of the Confederation, which commonly are considered to be part of the Confederation) of the old confederation were not really democratic. Only in the rather small cantos Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden, Zug, Glarus and Appenzell existed some sort of a democracy. I say some sort of a democracy because to vote it was required that one possessed a sword, which of course limited voting rights to the more wealthy.

Cantons (or Associates) which contain a bigger city, were generally governed by the aristocracy of the city (Bern, Luzern, Genf, Fribourg, Solothurn, Biel, Mullhouse) or the gildes (Zürich, Basel, St. Gallen, Schaffhausen)

There were even some monarchies: Prince-Abbey of St. Gallen, the county of Neuchatel, Prince-Bishopric of Basel.

Two Associates were themselves federal states: The Republic of Wallis (7 Zehnden), and the Three Leagues (Grisons).

Map of "Switzerland" in the 18th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Confederacy_18th_centur.png

Constitutions of the different states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Structure_old_swiss_en.png://

Wikipedia article on the Old Confederation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Swiss_Confederacy



Difference in executive organs between Switzerland and the USA:

I remember to have read somewhere, that the introduction of a executive-council instead of a president, was discussed at the founding of the United States, because some people feared, that giving the executive power to one single person would lead to an abuse of power by this person. They even feared that the President thus one day could become a king. This idea was dismissed, though, because one thought that a council would be unable to make quick decisions. As the US were a nation born in a war and there were further conflict looming with the British in Candada, the Spanish in Florida and the Indian Nations in the west the ability for quick decisions was considered to be of highest importance.

Another reason for the introduction of the office of a president instead of an executive council was that the founders of the USA feared that the members of this council would mutually cover their mistakes and thus making it much harder to check such a council then to check a single person. If the executive office is hold by only one person its clear who has to be hold responsible in case of failure.
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Old 25.08.2011, 09:53
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Rome most certainly was not a federal state. The old "Swiss" confederation however was organized as a federal state. In those times every canton sent deputies to the Tagsatzung (governing body that had both legislative and executive powers, but whose power was limited, leaving most to the cantons).
The Holy Roman Empire was a sort-of federal state, with each of the kingdons and duchies running its own affairs but still reporting to the HRE.
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Old 25.08.2011, 13:58
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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...The apple was introduced to Europe by returning Thurgovians in the early 15th century....
Fixed that for you.
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Old 25.08.2011, 15:34
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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The Holy Roman Empire was a sort-of federal state, with each of the kingdoms and duchies running its own affairs but still reporting to the HRE.
It is maybe worth noting that the Swiss Confederation was a part of the Holy Roman Empire until 1648, although Maximilan I had to accept the de-facto autonomy of the Swiss Confederation inside the HRE in the Treaty of Basel in 1499, which ended the Suebien War and led to the entry of Basel into the Confederation.

The 16th century is actually the only time when Switzerland actually wrote world history. In the Italian War large troops of Swiss mercenaries fought on all sides. They gained today’s Tessin and the Veltlin, the Ducal of Milan became a Swiss Protectorate but was lost again as the Swiss troops were defeated in the battle of Marignano.
Before that battle Bern, Fribourg, Biel and Solothurn retreated their troops because they agreed with a French peace treaty which said that all parts of Tessin conquered after 1500 were to be given back to Milan. Further the Confederation was to receive some compensation for their campaign and the retreat from the occupied Milanese territories.

The rest of the Swiss troops decided to occupy the city of Milan. The decisive battle took place outside of Milan at Marignano, when the Confederate troops attacked the French army. The battle lasted for two days and was finally decided by the Venice light cavalry outflanking the troops of the Confederation. The Confederates then retreated in order to Milan (first recorded ordered retreat since Antiquity).

The battle on Marignano was the end of the expansion policy of Switzerland. The main reason for that was that Switzerland was split by the Reformation, so that it was impossible for the Confederation to take sides in European conflicts because the Protestants did not want to support catholic states and vice versa, thus the Confederation remind neutral.

In 1531 civil war erupted in between the Protestant and the Catholic Cantons. Zurich's army was routed. The Reformer Huildrich Zwingli was found wounded on the battlefield and killed by his enemies . Martin Luther is reported two have said, when he heard of Zwingli's death: "Zwingli got what he deserved" (Zwingli was the most important reformer of the first generation besides Luther, their dispute wether the precence of christ at the last supper is meant symbolically (Zwingly) or litteral (Luther) prevented the Reformed Church (Zwinglian) and the German Evangelical Church (Luthren) prevented them from forming an alliance against the catholic church.

Only a few years later a second very important reformer appeared in Switzerland, whose teachings were based on Zwingli
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Old 25.08.2011, 23:18
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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The Holy Roman Empire was a sort-of federal state, with each of the kingdons and duchies running its own affairs but still reporting to the HRE.
What you refer to is the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, which NEVER had its centre or Capital in Rome, and the Emperor already then was neither "Royal" nor "Roman" but "Imperial" and "German" . THIS was the reason why the NSDAP & Hitler named their (Republican) Empire [Reich in German is an "Empire"] saw their domain as the THIRD Empire. And yes, it was Federal in a way, as the congregation of Kurfürsten and Kings had some real and heavy influence onto the whole Empire. This changed in the 1800s when the combined KurfürstentumBrandenburg + KönigreichPreussen (Kurfürst of Brandenburg and King of Prussia personal union --- the reason behind was that the Kurfürst of Brandenburg could not become King as the German Empire had set a limit to the number of Kings, but as much of Brandenburg ruled West and East Prussia was east of the Imperial borders, he stayed Kurfürst of Brandenburg but made himself "King of Prussia" and was 6 month per year in Berlin as Kurfürst and 6 in Königsburg as King ! ) ---- gradually conquered so much of the German lands that the resulting Königreich Preussen made up some 50% of all of Germany. Made easier of course by the fact that the Aargauer Dynasty, sorry I mean the Habsburger chaps long ago had separated themselves and departed into their separate Empire of Austria-Hungary. When the Kings of Prussia dropped their title of Kurfürst of Brandenburg, but became Kings of Prussia and Emperors of the (2nd) German Empire, the remaining Kings (Sachsen/Saxonia, Bayern/Bavaria, Württemberg) and Grossherzöge (Baden, etc) lost practically all influence and could not do anything to hinder the "Prussian" rulers to centralize the Empire. Amazingly, the Germany were allowed to retain the country-name "..... Empire" in spite of starting a Republic. You however may recall that Adolf Hitler in 1933 became (coalition) chancellor, but after the death of Marshal Hindenburg assumed the title "Führer" which in ful was "Führer des Deutschen Reiches" = "Leader of the German Empire". And what, please is the "Leader of the German Empire" else than a new Emperor ?!
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