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Old 25.08.2011, 23:27
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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Hitler
It was only a matter of time...
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  #62  
Old 25.08.2011, 23:47
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

[QUOTE=BKinTheHouse;1312428]I didn't mean to make it a Democrat vs Republican thing. I made a mistake by saying the "SVP really aspire to be like US Republicans".

My mistake was instantly associating Conservatism with being a Republican. This instant connection speaks to the strength of the Conservative movement in the the States.

In the US, the conservative movement has generally been portrayed as a group of religious fundamentalist and lately as a bunch of Tea-Party hillbilly terrorists. I just wondered(shockingly) why someone would admire the fringe/winger labels associated with the US conservative movement.

Tomberli pointed out that, "So for many people with strong ideologies it can be quite a relief to hear a politician actually speak out what they belief, rather than the usual thing that goes on here of finding compromises and not burning bridges. " In the case of my uncle, I think this is exactly what he admired... the principled nature of the US Conservative movement.

I didn't realize how marginalized the SVP was in the current four-party set-up. Ultimately, I think he looks across the Swiss political spectrum and realizes that 'Swiss Conservatism" on the whole will never make the political MESS that have been achieved in the States.[/QUOTE]

fixed that for you
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Old 26.08.2011, 00:56
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

The emperor of the HRE resided in Vienna until the end of the HRE in the Napoleonic Wars. After the defeat of Napolean the German Confederation was founded at the Vienna Conference in 1815. The two major powers in the German Confederation were the Austrian Empire, and Prussia. The German Confederation was a very loose conglomeration of the different German states. It had no strong government because, the German states were unable to agree in re-establishing the empire at the Vienna Conference (especially Austria and Prussia feared the influence of each other). In the beginning the Confederation was dominated by Austria.

In the German Revolution in 1848 tried to establish Germany as a federal state. Although it failed, it led to a process which ended by Austria concentrating on their territories in the east and Germany being unified under Prussian rule.

The failed Revolution in Germany is of rather big importance for Switzerland. Many revolutionaries fled to Switzerland, where they contributed a lot to the then young state.
For those who do not believe this because of the feelings hold by many Swiss people today. Please, conceder that educated and upper class people of Switzerland spoke almost exclusively High German before Word War I, because there was a strong social bias connected to speaking dialect.

It was in the isolation of WWI that Switzerland started to separate itself from Germany. That Switzerland did not take sides in WWI is largely due to the different parts of Switzerland favouring different nations. In the French part many people (at least at the beginning of the war) wanted to take sides with the French, whereas in the German part many liked to see Switzerland as an ally of Germany. The election of General Ulrich Wille as commander in chief of the Swiss armed forces led to much Controversy especially in the Romandy because he was known to be in favour of Germany.

To a large extend it was that forced isolation that led to the image that many Swiss today have of their country. Prior to WWI there were very close connections between Germany and (German speaking) Switzerland. Many people went to Germany to study and thus had many friends their. The proportions of German citizens living in Switzerland was even bigger then today.

Another interesting fact ist, that Switzerland was not actually neutral at the beginning of WWII but was a secrete alley of France. Their was a secrete treaty between France, who feared Germany could circumvent the Maginot-Line around Basel, and General Guisanne, that in case of a German Invasion, French motorist troops would enter Switzerland immediately. In this case about half the Swiss army (the western wing) would have been placed under French command whereas General Guisan would have taken comand of the eastern wing.

http://www.hebdo.ch/les_accords_secr...e1_46297_.html

This secrete treatise was recently rediscovered in a Soviet Archive, which contained French documents seized by Germany.
The fact that Germany actually knew about this alliance could be a further reason why Switzerland was quite cooperative with Germany after the defeat of France. The feared German retribution.

The whole point of the reduit strategy was actually to be able to demobilize large parts of the army, while maintaining the picture of a nation prepared for war. Due to that the output of Swiss industry increased, which then could be used as a bargain in negotiations which Germany (Switzerland was not attacked, it was allowed to transport food from harbours at the Mediterranean to Switzerland through German territory (Switzerland did never produce more then 60-70% of the food they consumed), in return Swiss Industry did serve Germany and Germany was allowed to use Swiss railways)
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Old 26.08.2011, 02:28
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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The emperor of the HRE resided in Vienna until the end of the HRE in the Napoleonic Wars. After the defeat of Napolean the German Confederation was founded at the Vienna Conference in 1815.
True, but the split between "Germany" and "Austria-Hungary" erupted rather shortly after the Vienna-Congress, so that the map in the 18 00 s looked as follows






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The failed Revolution in Germany is of rather big importance for Switzerland. Many revolutionaries fled to Switzerland, where they contributed a lot to the then young state.
Sure, in universities, museums, music, poetry, architecture and yes also politics


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For those who do not believe this because of the feelings hold by many Swiss people today. Please, consider that educated and upper class people of Switzerland spoke almost exclusively High German before Word War I, because there was a strong social bias connected to speaking dialect.
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an aunt of me, from Bern, but who lived in Schaffhausen, in all her years there (about 1924 to 1950) generally spoke High German with everybody, except Bernese speaking visitors

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Prior to WWI there were very close connections between Germany and (German speaking) Switzerland. Many people went to Germany to study and thus had many friends their. The proportions of German citizens living in Switzerland was even bigger then today.
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I would say that the close connections continued until the late 1930ies and even into wartime with several thousands of students from Schaffhausen alone studying in Konstanz. And many or even most of the connections have in the meantime become RE-established. It was not only aimed at Berlin or at Germany when Willy Brandt said "zusammenwachsen muss was zusammengehört". The process between Germany on one side and all its neighbours needed many decades and sadly the passing away of the "war-generation"

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Another interesting fact ist, that Switzerland was not actually neutral at the beginning of WWII but was a secret ally of France. Their was a secrete treaty between France, who feared Germany could circumvent the Maginot-Line around Basel, and General Guisan, that in case of a German Invasion, French motorist troops would enter Switzerland immediately. In this case about half the Swiss army (the western wing) would have been placed under French command whereas General Guisan would have taken comand of the eastern wing.
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A) "
Am 30. August 1939 erteilt die Bundesversammlung dem Bundesrat aufgrund des Notrechts Vollmachten und befugt ihn, eine Neutralitätserklärung abzugeben. Anschliessend wird der General der Schweizer Armee gewählt: Henri Guisan erhält 202 von 229 Stimmen.

You may realize that General Henri Guisan before 30th August 1939 was not entitled to do anything in representation of Switzerland. And that the favourite for the function of the CIC not too long before was General Ulrich Wille Junior.

You may also be aware of the fact that there never were two wings of the Swiss armed forces
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I here give you the structures introduced AFTER General Guisan took command, as there were FIVE army corps originally

Einheit ->>>>>>>>Kommandant ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>Einsatzraum
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1. Armeekorps Oberstkorpskommandant Lardelli Westen und Südwesten 1. Division Oberstdivisionär Combe Waadt
2. Division Oberstdivisionär Borel Bieler und Neuenburger Jura
3. Division Oberstdivisionär von Graffenried Bern / Murten
8. Division Oberstdivisionär Gübel Wiggertal
9. Division Oberstdivisionär Tissot Gotthard
1. Leichte Brigade Oberst Charrière Morges Jura
2. Leichte Brigade Oberst Koller Freibergen
10. Gebirgsbrigade Oberstbrig. Schwarz unterer Lauf der Rhone + Dranses
11. Gebirgsbrigade Oberstbrigadier Bühler Simplon (oberes Rhonetal)
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2. Armeekorps Oberstkorpskommandant Prisi Norden
4. Division Oberstdivisionär Scherz Solothurner Jura
5. Division Oberstdivisionär Prisi Aargau / Fricktal
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3. Armeekorps Oberstkorpskommandant Miescher Osten und Nordosten 6. Division Divisionär Constam Zürich / Winterthur
7. Division Divisionär Flückiger Toggenburg
3. Leichte Brigade Oberst Wirth Frauenfeld
12. Gebirgsbrig. Brig. Hold+Gubler Graubünden Festung Sargans
Flieger- und Fliegerabwehrtruppen Oberstdivisionär Bandi
--- And I can tell you that nobody in Switzerland would ever have allowed French army units to operate in Switzerland






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The whole point of the reduit strategy was actually to be able to demobilize large parts of the army, while maintaining the picture of a nation prepared for war.
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A) All investigations into the WW-II history confirms that the strategy of General Henri Guisan NEVER was "reduit strategy", but a three-tier-strategy, with the frontier troops having been the first guard, the main part of the army having been positioned a bit beside the anticipated German advance routes in order to be able to attack the intruders from behind (look at the position of the Schaffhausen Batalliion in the Irchel region), and the reduit only having been the last fall-back option
B) Ever been aware that General Guisan got drowned in too many troops on a far too small terrain ? Large parts of that far far far too large army were simply superfluous. To demobilize large parts of that territory wise clearly oversized army did not reduce the power of that army but increase it ! Or to put it quite bluntly, General Guisan had to get rid of 65% of the soldiers under a patriotic excuse, and THIS was the birth of the "Reduit-myth"

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Due to that the output of Swiss industry increased, which then could be used as a bargain in negotiations which Germany (Switzerland was not attacked, it was allowed to transport food from harbours at the Mediterranean to Switzerland through German territory (Switzerland did never produce more then 60-70% of the food they consumed), in return Swiss Industry did serve Germany and Germany was allowed to use Swiss railways)
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The output of the Swiss industry was overall not increased but lowered quite considerably, not least as Swiss industry found it increasingly difficult to deliver the stuff to their markets. Germany in reality controlled even private mail in and out of Switzerland and of course controlled all merchandise traffic. Germany in exchange for the use of Swiss rails by German railways gave compensation contracts to the Swiss industry. It may help you to understand things further if you see that the grandfather of Mr Bührle was a German immigrant !
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  #65  
Old 26.08.2011, 03:39
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

http://www.hebdo.ch/les_accords_secr...ce_46297_.html
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[...]
Voilà pour le cadre. Entrons dans le tableau et le vif du sujet de ce que les Français appelaient pudiquement une «promesse d’assistance faite aux Suisses pour le cas d’une agression allemande». Pour Paris, cette coopération avait un «caractère formel», comme l’écrit le 22 mai 1939 le général Gamelin, grand patron de l’armée française, dans une note très secrète. Officiellement, ce partenariat franco-suisse était uniquement défensif. Il était hors de question que les Français interviennent sans le feu vert du général Guisan – et non du Conseil fédéral d’ailleurs qui, mis à part le ministre de la défense Rudolf Minger, n’était pas au courant de l’accord…
Reste que s’il était venu à l’idée des Italiens et des Allemands «de réaliser l’occupation brusquée et rapide» de la Confédération, les Français seraient intervenus immédiatement, prévient le général Georges dans un autre document estampillé «secret défense». Sans demander notre avis.
Sur le terrain, dès l’automne 1939, la France avait en outre mobilisé trois armées pour la défense de la Suisse, soit au moins 150 000 hommes ainsi que de nombreux chars, avions et véhicules de transport. Le plan de départ était plus ambitieux encore. Un quart des effectifs hexagonaux devait être prêt à tenir sur le plateau helvétique. Irréaliste, avait jugé Gamelin, qui avait revu à la baisse les prétentions de ses généraux, même si la mission de ce corps expéditionnaire était essentielle. Il devait empêcher que les nazis prennent à revers la ligne Maginot, en contournant par Bâle cet énorme système de fortifications bâties après la Première Guerre mondiale. L’armée allemande aurait eu ensuite la porte ouverte pour foncer sur Paris en passant par la trouée de Belfort.
La VIIIe armée devait ainsi tenir le massif de Gempen qui, du haut de ses 700 mètres, domine la cité rhénane, la VIe armée, des positions entre Pully et Olten, alors que l’armée des Alpes serait intervenue à Martigny en bombardant notamment le Grand-Saint-Bernard en cas d’attaque italienne. Quant à l’armée suisse, elle aurait été relevée sur une bonne partie du front franco-helvétique après avoir repoussé les assauts nazis, sur la ligne Guisan, la ligne de défense de la Limmat que le général avait fait aménager hâtivement au début du conflit. Probablement sur les conseils des Français. «Pour l’état-major français, l’armée suisse était le maillon faible», analyse Alain-Jacques Tornare. «Et cette faiblesse a obligé la France à modifier sa propre stratégie pour assurer son flanc droit. Des troupes qui manqueront en mai-juin 1940 dans le nord de la France au moment de la percée de Sedan.» De là à dire que la Suisse porte une part de responsabilités dans la défaite française, il y a un pas que l’historien suisse franchit, en s’appuyant sur les documents découverts à Vincennes.
[...]
Mais ce qui surprend le plus à la lecture de ce millefeuille historique, c’est que l’armée helvétique était prête à passer sous commandement français en cas d’agression allemande. Il était par exemple prévu que le commandant de la VIe armée française prenne les rênes du 2e Corps d’armée suisse. La même option était prévue avec les troupes de Bâle ou, encore, avec la division de soudure, dont le commandement avait été confié en secret au colonel Claude Du Pasquier, commandant de la brigade frontière 3 dont la mission était de tenir le massif de Gempen pour couvrir la mise en place des troupes françaises, de l’artillerie notamment.
«Il passera aux ordres du général commandant le corps d’armée française d’intervention dès que la prise de contact entre son chef et le commandant du CA (corps d’armée) français aura été réalisée. Le commandant et la garnison de la ville de Bâle ainsi que les troupes opérant au sud de la cité rhénane pourront être placés, par le commandement français, aux ordres directs de la DI (division d’infanterie) française de gauche.» La circulation devait être également réglée par les Français. Tout comme le ravitaillement et les évacuations des troupes franco-suisses.
[...]
For the ones who do not understand French (translation by Google):
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[...]

So much for the frame. Enter the table and the heart of the matter of what the French euphemistically called a "promise made to the Swiss for assistance in the event of German aggression." For Paris, this cooperation was a "formality" as written May 22, 1939 General Gamelin, boss of the French army, in a note very secret. Officially, the partnership between France and Switzerland was only defensive. There was no question that the French intervene without the approval of General Guisan - not the Federal Council also that, apart from the defense minister Rudolf Minger, was unaware of the agreement ...

Still, if occurred to the Italians and the Germans "to achieve quick and sudden occupation" of Confederation, the French intervened immediately, warns General Georges in another document stamped "secret". Without asking our opinion.

On the ground, in the autumn 1939, France had also mobilized three armies in defense of Switzerland, at least 150,000 men and many tanks, aircraft and transport vehicles. The original plan was more ambitious. A quarter of the workforce must be prepared to hex into Helvetic on the board. Unrealistic ruled Gamelin, who had lowered the claims of his generals, even if the mission of this expeditionary force was essential. He had to prevent the Nazis took from behind the Maginot line, skirting the huge Basel system of fortifications built after the First World War. The German army would have had the door open and then zeroing in on Paris through the Belfort Gap.

The Eighth Army was to hold the massive and Gempen which, from its height of 700 meters, overlooking the city on the Rhine, the Sixth Army, the positions of Pully and Olten, while the army of the Alps would have intervened by bombing in Martigny including Great St. Bernard in an Italian attack. As for the Swiss Army, it was found on much of the Franco-Helvetic front after defeating Nazi assaults on the line Guisan, the defense line of the Limmat that the general had installed hastily at the beginning of the conflict . Probably on the advice of the French. "For the French General Staff, the Swiss Army was the weak link," Alain-Jacques Tornare analysis. "And this weakness has forced France to change its own strategy to secure his right flank. Troops who fail in May-June 1940 in northern France at the time of the breakthrough at Sedan. "To say that Switzerland is a share of responsibility for the French defeat, there is not that the Swiss historian crosses, based on documents discovered in Vincennes.

[...]

But the most surprising to read that yarrow history is that the army was ready to move Helvetic under French command in the event of German aggression. It was expected that for example the commander of the Sixth French Army to take the reins of the 2nd Corps in Switzerland. The same option was planned with the troops of Basel, again, with welding division, whose command had been given in secret to Colonel Claude Du Pasquier, commander of the brigade boundary 3 whose mission was to hold the massive Gempen to cover the setting up of French troops, artillery, among others.

"He spent the orders of the commanding general of the army corps of French intervention as soon as the contact between its leader and commander of the CA (Corps) French has been achieved. The commander and the garrison of the city of Basel and the troops operating south of the city on the Rhine may be placed by the French command, to direct orders of the ID (Infantry Division) French left. "The movement was also be set by the French. Just as supply and evacuation of French troops in Switzerland.
[...]
Here is an additional source in German for the ones who are more comfortable with that language (It is actually a summery of the Hebdo article I quoted above :

http://www.tagblatt.ch/nachrichten/p...120101,1566266



This treaty was only recently discovered in an old French archive which was first sized by the Germans and then sized by the Soviets. After the cold war had ended France got access to them for the first time for only a couple of months in 1993-94 and then again since 2000. The shelves of this archive have a total length of about three kilometres, thus it takes a lot of time to look it through.

This Alliance was secrete, and thus documents were kept to the minimum (one copy for the Swiss, one copy for the French), after the French defeat the Swiss copy was distroied to eliminate evidence. The French one was found by the Germans and later seized by the Soviets, there it was in an archive without anybody knowing that it does exist.

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You may also be aware of the fact that there never were two wings of the Swiss armed forces
These wings are only meant geographicaly. France would have commanded the troops who would be used to prevent Germany from circumventing the Maginot-line (i.e. all troops east from Basel) whereas the troops under Swiss command would have tried to defend a line which led from Basel towards Zurich (Limmat-line).


This alliance is actually identical to the one between France and Belgiun. As Germany invaded Belgiun, French and British forces immediately entred Belgium to prevent Germany from circumventing the Maginot-line (and moving the front out of France, because they thought there was trench warfare coming). This however did not work out that well, because German tanks crossed the Ardennes (an area form which the French thought it was not manoeuvrable for tanks) and did circle the French and British army at Dunkirch. Thus the allied forces had lost a great part of their motorist troops. The remaining motorised troops were stationed in the near the Swiss border and thus to far away from the actual battles. Thus France had to fight Germany without tanks and was thus defeated very quickly.
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Old 26.08.2011, 11:01
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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I'm assuming he is SVP. Does the SVP really aspire to be like US Republicans?
yupp, they have taken over many of their ideas, their methods, their party organization etc. At the same time, of course, they never miss an opportunity to bash the US and the "Amis".
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Old 26.08.2011, 11:08
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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yupp, they have taken over many of their ideas, their methods, their party organization etc. At the same time, of course, they never miss an opportunity to bash the US and the "Amis".
But are the amis they are bashing the same amis that they are admiring?
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Old 26.08.2011, 11:10
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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True, but the split between "Germany" and "Austria-Hungary" erupted ....
Wow Wolli, you ought to write a history book!
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Old 26.08.2011, 11:10
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Re: Swiss Conservativism

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But are the amis they are bashing the same amis that they are admiring?
That's the main problem: they don't differentiate. Amis are all stupid, lazy and evil.

Of course, that's what I think all SVP voters are :-)
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