Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 26.08.2011, 14:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,521
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
Sexual harrassment in the workplace has nothing to do with geographical generalizations. It has to do with coworkers feeling comfortable to get their work done.

It's fairly ignorant and disrespectful if you believe you can go kissing people in you office at random. Especially in a country where there are so many expats.
Maybe you should suggest burkhas and hijabs as standard office dress. To prevent anything untowards from happening, you know.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 26.08.2011, 14:58
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,621
Groaned at 2,350 Times in 1,709 Posts
Thanked 38,426 Times in 18,133 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
Especially in a country where there are so many expats.
So many?

Hell, the largest group is from a kissing-country (Italy)!

People from stuck-up NA are definitely the minority (in fact, in 25 years I've never worked with one ).

Tom

Last edited by st2lemans; 26.08.2011 at 15:21.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #63  
Old 26.08.2011, 15:54
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
Maybe you should suggest burkhas and hijabs as standard office dress. To prevent anything untowards from happening, you know.

So you're inferring that the way someone dresses is an invitation for physical contact and kissing and the such?

Quote:
View Post
So many?

Hell, the largest group is from a kissing-country (Italy)!

People from stuck-up NA are definitely the minority (in fact, in 25 years I've never worked with one ).

Tom

Very true, but I guess North American's are a bit more respectful of different opinions and beliefs--and would rather make up such absolute rules (yes I agree that they are a bit extreme) so that all can feel comfortable and accepted. We all know from many threads that the swiss are not very good at this at all.

Where are the limits? though? If a new co worker would 'whip it out' and start playing with it, and defend it saying, at his last place of work this was acceptable, and I should just continue working without any hesitation---I would be uncomfortable, and my productivity would be affected.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 26.08.2011, 15:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,521
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
So you're inferring that the way someone dresses is an invitation for physical contact and kissing and the such?
No, not at all, but I did expect this inflamatory PC reply. After all it is you who infer kissing as a greeting can be construed as sexual - not me.

Quote:
Very true, but I guess North American's are a bit more respectful of different opinions and beliefs--and would rather make up such absolute rules (yes I agree that they are a bit extreme) so that all can feel comfortable and accepted. We all know from many threads that the swiss are not very good at this at all.
And how do they respect the century-old European habit of kissing? By trying to ban it and equating it with sexual harassment? You "think" you are "respectful" because you have been brainwashed into it. Fact is we've been kissing each other's cheeks for quite a while here, and nobody seems to feel harassed, nor instantly attach perverted sexual meaning to pretty much anything one might do in his/her day to day life.

Quote:
Where are the limits? though? If a new co worker would 'whip it out' and start playing with it, and defend it saying, at his last place of work this was acceptable, and I should just continue working without any hesitation---I would be uncomfortable, and my productivity would be affected.
If you equate a perfunctory ceremonial kiss with lewd exposure then there is really nothing to discuss, is it.
__________________
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily the opinions of management and in fact may be the opposite of that intended in order to confuse and obfuscate trolling readers.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:08
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
No, not at all, but I did expect this inflamatory PC reply. After all it is you who infer kissing as a greeting can be construed as sexual - not me.

And how do they respect the century-old European habit of kissing? By trying to ban it and equating it with sexual harassment? You "think" you are "respectful" because you have been brainwashed into it. Fact is we've been kissing each other's cheeks for quite a while here, and nobody seems to feel harassed, nor instantly attach perverted sexual meaning to pretty much anything one might do in his/her day to day life.

If you equate a perfunctory ceremonial kiss with lewd exposure then there is really nothing to discuss, is it.
Again, many don't find it sexual or personal but many do have a bit of extended 'personal space' (I really don't think 'nobdy feels harrassed') and again, I'm not disrespectful enough to infringe on their boundaries. Plus if someone comes at me with a herpy attack (or an upcoming one) am I expected to contract a viral disease just because it's a century-old tradition? Will I be treated the same way if half way through the approach, I push the person away?

Would I go up to a stranger and kiss them hello? Not acceptable. Can I go up to a stranger and shake their hand---never had a problem with it.

on the same level, you consider my extreme example to be lewd (yes, I do too)---So do other cultures when they see kissing in a place of work.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:20
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 240
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 92 Times in 58 Posts
EarME is considered unworthyEarME is considered unworthyEarME is considered unworthy
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

I think some people are doing this greeting thing wrong. If you watch its more kind of a hug a pretend kiss on the cheek. No lips or tongues involved. Your more likely to catch something from shaking someone by the hand as they have been shaking somthing else and not washing their hands.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:25
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
I think some people are doing this greeting thing wrong. If you watch its more kind of a hug a pretend kiss on the cheek. No lips or tongues involved. Your more likely to catch something from shaking someone by the hand as they have been shaking somthing else and not washing their hands.

This shaking hands being dirtier than the face proof has been going around a few times. But most things you can get from shaking hands, you will also get from opening doors, using common computers, pens, tools. These items don't normally come in contact with the face very often.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:26
herc82's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,624
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 975 Times in 605 Posts
herc82 has a reputation beyond reputeherc82 has a reputation beyond reputeherc82 has a reputation beyond reputeherc82 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
This shaking hands being dirtier than the face proof has been going around a few times. But most things you can get from shaking hands, you will also get from opening doors, using common computers, pens, tools. These items don't normally come in contact with the face very often.
So instead of simply abstaining from such practices there should be a general ban?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank herc82 for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Let the BCBG show you how to do this kissing thing properly

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:33
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,521
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
So do other cultures when they see kissing in a place of work.
You don't live in another culture. You expect us to conform to the North American culture - fair enough if this were North America.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:33
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
So instead of simply abstaining from such practices there should be a general ban?

Well this is where it does get a bit more complicated.
I'm not a fan of absolute bans---because, then where are the limits. But there is the discussion that: Some people will feel uncomfortable with it (being forced into the greeting ritual or being excluded from the greeting ritual) and you will get a loss of productivity from them. Or, if it is banned, will this have an effect on productivity.

My end opinion is that if you allow it, problems might arise, if you ban it, there will be less (if any) of a negative effect to the company's bottom line.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:36
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
You don't live in another culture. You expect us to conform to the North American culture - fair enough if this were North America.

I don't expect europeans to conform to other cultures, but I do think it shows respect and sophistication if one requires workers from another culture, to makes steps and ensure they are content and happy. The happy worker is the productive worker.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:41
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,681
Groaned at 52 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 9,623 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

*shudders at the thought of sexually harassing granny all those years*
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:46
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 240
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 92 Times in 58 Posts
EarME is considered unworthyEarME is considered unworthyEarME is considered unworthy
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Im off to invest in Oxygen tents. Safe in my own bubble.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 26.08.2011, 16:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,521
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
I don't expect europeans to conform to other cultures, but I do think it shows respect and sophistication if one requires workers from another culture, to makes steps and ensure they are content and happy. The happy worker is the productive worker.
As opposed to respectful and sophisticated North American employers who go to amazing lengths to conform to other cultures and make their workers happy and productive? Ha ha.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 26.08.2011, 17:01
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
As opposed to respectful and sophisticated North American employers who go to amazing lengths to conform to other cultures and make their workers happy and productive? Ha ha.
Well yeah, there's a bottom line, there's standard rules to be applied. There are pros and cons of each decision. You make the rule on the side of the excess pros. That's how responsible, logical and successful decisions are made.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 26.08.2011, 17:06
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,681
Groaned at 52 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 9,623 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Am I right in thinking then, that if you saw two colleagues kiss a greeting while you were all working in a US office, you would be obligated to report one or both of them for sexual harrassment?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 26.08.2011, 17:15
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,141
Groaned at 33 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,231 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
Am I right in thinking then, that if you saw two colleagues kiss a greeting while you were all working in a US office, you would be obligated to report one or both of them for sexual harrassment?
Personal discretion would come into play for sure. But that's the reason for an outright ban. If you saw it, and all workers are aware of the rules in place, you could conclude that either they are both breaking the non-kissing rule, or one person was focibly kissing the other (which could be considered sexual harassment).

Being obligated to rat on your co-workers is not a standard rule across the working world from my experience. But if you wanted to be that diligent workers, you could report it to HR, they would investigate. If it was a simple euro-style greeting consentual by both, they would be reminded of the 'non-kissing' rule (or whatever first infraction dicipline is). If the investingation (really just a quick chat with parties involved) showed that one instigated the 'kiss' and the other uncomforably complied out of fear, or whatever..then further steps are to be taken.

If there was no 'non-kissing' rule, the second situation could go over looked very often causing all sorts of issues to the victim on a psycological level. Not good for business.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 26.08.2011, 17:40
colinwheeler's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Gersau
Posts: 998
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 872 Times in 440 Posts
colinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond reputecolinwheeler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
Where are the limits? though?
The limits are when as a man you have to climb out of an elevator if you are alone because a woman climbs in. (As per published as advise in American anti-sexual harassment handbooks.)

The limits are when you make your culture so bland to be as politically correct that vanilla is considered too scary a flavour at work as it could be sexually provocative.

The limits are when you can't meet people half way but expect everybody to follow your way because it is the least obtrusive possible thing to do.

The limits are when the Swiss change their culture to put up with American litigious nature and politically correct bull shite!
__________________
Living it up in Gersau.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank colinwheeler for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 26.08.2011, 18:00
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,357
Groaned at 96 Times in 56 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Office etiquette: should kisses be banned?

Quote:
View Post
The limits are when as a man you have to climb out of an elevator if you are alone because a woman climbs in. (As per published as advise in American anti-sexual harassment handbooks.)

The limits are when you make your culture so bland to be as politically correct that vanilla is considered too scary a flavour at work as it could be sexually provocative.

The limits are when you can't meet people half way but expect everybody to follow your way because it is the least obtrusive possible thing to do.

The limits are when the Swiss change their culture to put up with American litigious nature and politically correct bull shite!
I sense you have a long, bitter history not shared by many others.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank phdoofus for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0