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  #1981  
Old 13.02.2014, 19:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Given how narrow the result was and the 50% turnout, it's not a bad idea.
Reminds me of the infamous 2005 EU referendum on the constitution:
- France results: no by 55% ---> french parliament cancelled the results and reworded the whole thing and ratified the agreement by the Parliament and Senat without asking again the population
- After France, the Dutch also refused it by 62%

--> panic in EU! They "postponed" all referendums (Ireland, Danemark, Ceczech Republic, Poland, Portugal etc...). They introduced a trick saying that it's only a slight adaptation/modification of existing treaties so no voting required...and it became the "traité de Lisbonne" (so complex modifications that no citizen would understand anyway......it's like a trans-gender surgery).
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  #1982  
Old 13.02.2014, 20:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "the initiative was very clear on what they wanted to implement" - is this irony?
a cap and quota on residence permits and an end to FMOP in 3 years unless it can be renegotiated to make it compatible with the cap/quota limits.

clear?!

i'm ignoring the other stuff on social benefits and family blah blah
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  #1983  
Old 13.02.2014, 20:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Just throwing a thought on how to implement the quotas.

The idea is based on similarity with the carbon trading market:
1) each company receives a number of permits based on its sector profile (agriculture, medical, finance, etc...)

2) if you don't need them you can sell your quota to a company that needs them.

3) if the foreign employee is so valuable for your business you'll be ready to spend a certain amount to get a permit for him/her.

By letting the market operate you'll see the value and demand for permits. The federal government can then every year adapt the quotas. By making it an open market you also reach transparency (who is asking and getting what).
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  #1984  
Old 13.02.2014, 20:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Just throwing a thought on how to implement the quotas.

The idea is based on similarity with the carbon trading market:
1) each company receives a number of permits based on its sector profile (agriculture, medical, finance, etc...)

2) if you don't need them you can sell your quota to a company that needs them.

3) if the foreign employee is so valuable for your business you'll be ready to spend a certain amount to get a permit for him/her.

By letting the market operate you'll see the value and demand for permits. The federal government can then every year adapt the quotas. By making it an open market you also reach transparency (who is asking and getting what).
can get difficult to administer. do i guess you'd need to factor in turnover, otherwise a group can just set up a permit farm by creating hundreds of additional companies. what about unincorporated businesses?

maybe easier for each canton to set their own limit and then auction them. you still get the market, but without the admin of having to allocate them initially.
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  #1985  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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can get difficult to administer. do i guess you'd need to factor in turnover, otherwise a group can just set up a permit farm by creating hundreds of additional companies. what about unincorporated businesses?

maybe easier for each canton to set their own limit and then auction them. you still get the market, but without the admin of having to allocate them initially.
i think you can't avoid doing the allocation work at the beginning and it has to be done by an authority (Canton or Federal).
The initial allocation has to be sector specific and as you suggested modulated by either revenue/turnover or number of active employees.

One remark I heard about the old quota system was that certain cantons or companies were able to get more than others because of their relationship with federal administrations. By creating a market you avoid that.
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  #1986  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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a cap and quota on residence permits and an end to FMOP in 3 years unless it can be renegotiated to make it compatible with the cap/quota limits.

clear?!

i'm ignoring the other stuff on social benefits and family blah blah
About "a cap and quota" - how big? a million or zero or .....

And that is clear

The actual translated text is " The maximum annual numbers and quotas for working foreigners are to be aligned to the overall economic interests of Switzerland"

Please note "overall economic interests of Switzerland" - nothing about aligning to full trains or high rents or anything of the other comments people made here.

If the Bundesrat determine the overall economic interests are best served by keeping the EU happy then the game is open.....

The stuff on on social benefits and family is even more vague - I quote "The right to permanent residence, family reunification and social benefits may be limited" - it all depends on the exact meaning of "kann beschränkt werden".
If they had written, for example, "muss beschränkt werden" then it would be a different story.
Anyway these rights are already limited today so I do not envy the law makers their task in writing any changes.
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  #1987  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "a cap and quota" - how big? a million or zero or .....

And that is clear

The actual translated text is " The maximum annual numbers and quotas for working foreigners are to be aligned to the overall economic interests of Switzerland"

Please note "overall economic interests of Switzerland" - nothing about aligning to full trains or high rents or anything of the other comments people made here.

If the Bundesrat determine the overall economic interests are best served by keeping the EU happy then the game is open.....

The stuff on on social benefits and family is even more vague - I quote "The right to permanent residence, family reunification and social benefits may be limited" - it all depends on the exact meaning of "kann beschränkt werden".
If they had written, for example, "muss beschränkt werden" then it would be a different story.
Anyway these rights are already limited today so I do not envy the law makers their task in writing any changes.
Actually I do not see anything that prevents the Bundesrat from defining a qualitative quota rather than quantitative; for example, something like but more clever than "in order to maximise the overall economic interests of Switzerland the quota each year for EU shall not be less than the number of EU permit applications."
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  #1988  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "a cap and quota" - how big? a million or zero or .....

And that is clear

The actual translated text is " The maximum annual numbers and quotas for working foreigners are to be aligned to the overall economic interests of Switzerland"

Please note "overall economic interests of Switzerland" - nothing about aligning to full trains or high rents or anything of the other comments people made here.

If the Bundesrat determine the overall economic interests are best served by keeping the EU happy then the game is open.....

The stuff on on social benefits and family is even more vague - I quote "The right to permanent residence, family reunification and social benefits may be limited" - it all depends on the exact meaning of "kann beschränkt werden".
If they had written, for example, "muss beschränkt werden" then it would be a different story.
Anyway these rights are already limited today so I do not envy the law makers their task in writing any changes.
there's a difference between clear and specific. the mandate to set a cap and quota is clear.

the specifics of what that quota/cap should be is an open question. but there is no ambiguity that a cap/quota should be in place.

the existence of such a quota is already a potential problem when it comes to existing EU agreements. as i mentioned in another post, it may be possible to finesse by granting C permits to EU nationals if B/L permit quotas are exhausted.
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  #1989  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

It's hard to see how another referendum would produce a different result. Let's wait and see how it all pans out, there's no rush.
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  #1990  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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i think you can't avoid doing the allocation work at the beginning and it has to be done by an authority (Canton or Federal).
The initial allocation has to be sector specific and as you suggested modulated by either revenue/turnover or number of active employees.

One remark I heard about the old quota system was that certain cantons or companies were able to get more than others because of their relationship with federal administrations. By creating a market you avoid that.
what i mean is that you set the initial number of permits, and the initial allocation is simply that they go to the companies that will pay the most for them.

of course such a system would favour permits for 'high end' jobs as low wage jobs would be priced out. i'm not sure if this necessary would be in the economic interests of switzerland since there are requirements for low wage jobs (agricultural harvesting etc.).
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  #1991  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It's hard to see how another referendum would produce a different result. Let's wait and see how it all pans out, there's no rush.
We asked a few million people to vote and the majority was only 0.3%.
Such a tiny difference could be multiplied or destroyed in a new vote - influenced by things like, changed views, a flu epidemic, different campaigns, &&&&&
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  #1992  
Old 13.02.2014, 22:04
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The actual translated text is " The maximum annual numbers and quotas for working foreigners are to be aligned to the overall economic interests of Switzerland".
OK, fine. What I don't understand is why would bureaucrats in Bern or whatever cantonal capital know better what the economic interest of Switzerland is than the employers actually creating value and jobs. The S in SVP must mean "socialist"...
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  #1993  
Old 13.02.2014, 22:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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there's a difference between clear and specific. the mandate to set a cap and quota is clear.

the specifics of what that quota/cap should be is an open question. but there is no ambiguity that a cap/quota should be in place.

the existence of such a quota is already a potential problem when it comes to existing EU agreements. as i mentioned in another post, it may be possible to finesse by granting C permits to EU nationals if B/L permit quotas are exhausted.
About "the mandate to set a cap and quota is clear." actually it is about setting a quota - to write "a cap and quota" is confusing.

I freely admit that I do not know much about exactly how Swiss legal documents are written.
If this was reviewed under English law my first reaction is there are too many commas which would generate a lawyers bean feast about the exact meaning.
Also (in the English view) adding the sub sentence about Grenzgangers immediately after "priority for Swiss" could lead lawyers to argue it means Grenzgangers should also have priority.
The part about Grenzgangers would have been better as a separate sentence.
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Old 13.02.2014, 22:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The S in SVP must mean "socialist"...
Of course it does! Populist parties are always socialist once you strip them down to their bare bones.

The whole "right wing" thing is just smoke and mirrors.
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Old 13.02.2014, 22:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "the mandate to set a cap and quota is clear." actually it is about setting a quota - to write "a cap and quota" is confusing.
why do you say it is only a quota?

i checked german and french versions:

"Die Zahl der Bewilligungen für den Aufenthalt von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern in der Schweiz wird durch jährliche Höchstzahlen und Kontingente begrenzt."

"Le nombre des autorisations délivrées pour le séjour des étrangers en Suisse est limité par des plafonds et des contingents annuels."

And both clearly call for a cap/ceiling and a quota.

sometimes, I wonder if I am the only person who has both read and understood the initiative...
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  #1996  
Old 13.02.2014, 22:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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OK, fine. What I don't understand is why would bureaucrats in Bern or whatever cantonal capital know better what the economic interest of Switzerland is than the employers actually creating value and jobs. The S in SVP must mean "socialist"...

Thanks, anyway "overall economic interests" is not defined anywhere; we could easily spend years on just definition of that phrase.
My contentious definition would be "anything that reduces the influence of the SVP" but I suppose not many people would support that.
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  #1997  
Old 13.02.2014, 22:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Of course it does! Populist parties are always socialist once you strip them down to their bare bones.

The whole "right wing" thing is just smoke and mirrors.
You are the one comparing SVP with N-S-DAP, not I.
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Old 13.02.2014, 22:15
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You are the one comparing SVP with N-S-DAP, not I.
I was actually thinking of UKIP...
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Old 13.02.2014, 22:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I was actually thinking of UKIP...
There is no S in UKIP, there is one meaning 'socialist' in NSDAP.... quod erat demonstrandum.
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Old 13.02.2014, 22:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

You should be ashamed of mocking this wonderful party and its great leader, full of wisdom and bright ideas:

British vaginas are the best in the world, says Farage

NIGEL Farage has admitted conducting research into foreign female genitalia.

The Queen’s is the best of all

The UKIP leader visited a Strasbourg strip club on a vagina fact-finding mission.
He concluded that foreign vaginas are all well and good, but they lack the strong redoubtable character of the classic British ‘fanny’.
Farage said: “During the course of the evening I was able to compare ladies’ undercarriages of various nationalities.
“There was even a woman called ‘Deluxe’ who said she was from ‘wherever I wanted her to be from’ which frankly made no sense.
“I have to say, the vaginas on display that night were overall not nearly as well-engineered as the British labia I encountered at similar establishments back when I was working in the City.
“Also the foreign drinks are far too strong. They can make you do things you wouldn’t normally, like getting on a girl’s leg and saying ‘I’m a bad bulldog’.”
Farage added that he was less ok with foreign penises: “I’ve never seen it myself but apparently Bulgarians have two penises.
“And Germans have a fingernail instead of a bell end.”
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