English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Swiss politics/news (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/)
-   -   Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/124269-masseneinwanderung-stoppen-initiative-limit-immigration.html)

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 11:43

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1383503)
Really? You're joking right?

America is one of the most racially and ethnically aware and discrimatory countries I've been to. Why are there African American ghettos and White suburbs if race doesn't matter? Why was Obama's election such a big deal if race doesn't matter?

But Americans love to accuse other countries of racism to deflect from their own failings.

You have no clue what you are talking about, NONE. Did you read that in some Left wing-hate the U.S. jealously rag? You know the typical kind with no diversity of opinion that is everywhere on this side of the Atlantic. lol

I am African American. I've lived in 4 different states in my life. I have never lived in a ghetto, neither has anyone closely related to me.

Obama would never be elected in Europe at all, anywhere, not any country. Blacks live better in America than in any nation in Europe.

You have more blacks in more positions of power, with more wealth, with more education than anywhere in Europe. Please name me a country in Europe or in the world where blacks live better than in America.

The issues of ghettos and whatever are quite complex and historical and THERE IS RACISM, but reality is that most blacks don't live in ghettos. About 1/4 of blacks live in poverty, which is a high number, but that also means 3/4 or 27 million are not poor, but middle class or higher (a population almost 4X Switzerland's entire population)

Don't confuse talking about race with racism. I would rather live in the U.S. where we are more realistic about our issues, than in France where "Everyone is equal" on paper, where they keep no statistics on race at all (because it is illegal) but the you can't prove when you are being discriminated against, you have no way to fight this in court, where people pretend there is no problem although it is obvious that blacks and Arabs (on average) live like crap (far worse than blacks and Arabs in the U.S. by any measure).

Europeans not talking about racism or race is not a better situation, there is a word for it.

DENIAL.

If anything...Europe doesn't have race problems like Americans don't have class problems.:D Reality is the U.S. has serious class issues, which we try to cover up (the same way that Europeans tend to gloss over racial issues).


As far as blacks in America, real statistics from black American organizations and the U.S. government.

Read this.

Please find me a place in Europe where blacks are living better. lol

General African American statistics.

http://www.bookerrising.net/2007/01/statistics-about-black-americans.html

and

African American Income:

http://www.bookerrising.net/2007/01/...ns-income.html

I can wait. Most of the blacks I meet in Switzerland are refugees, blue collar workers, drug dealers, OR EDUCATED FOREIGN BORN. LOL

As we say where I come from...

"haters gonna hate"...lol

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:03

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Further if Switzerland had 30% of it's population as "visible minorities" it would probably be in civil war right now, you definitely would not handle it as well as America. Most of the "Yugos" (using this term as I constantly here in Switzerland, not as I use it myself) I know who grew up here don't even refer to themselves as Swiss, but Serbian, Kosovar, Albanian...etc. I think if they grew up in America they would just say they were American (at least first or Serbian-American, etc.)

It is obvious that growing up here (as in much of continental Europe) integration really is not taking place for many immigrants. Because nationality is often based on blood, not citizenship. I know a Italy guy (WHO I WORK WITH) who grew up here who still says he is Italy. LOL He has never lived in Italy. He has a Swiss passport. He told me he is usually spoken to as if he is "Italian" not Swiss. He grew up in a small village with one other Italian family, and he was made aware all his life he was "Italian" not Swiss. People even make jokes about him "knowing mafia" and all other types of nonsense. This man is about 35 years old. He is not bitter, but talks about it as if it is just a fact of life. Imagine if the was black or East Asian, South Asian, etc. LOL I have a French-Arab friend here too, he thinks the exact same way about France. He told me "I'm French, but not really French...you know what they call us??" I would never say "I'm not really American" you would be very hard pressed to find an African American who would say that. You probably could if you looked for weeks and weeks in the U.S. and he will be some black nationalist type...definitely not normal.

If you can't even properly integrate these folks, you shouldn't dare compare or EVEN TRY TO UNDERSTAND the situation in America. It is way way over your head.

Jobsrobertsharpii 21.10.2011 12:08

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383498)
The repubilcans are anti-immigrant? Illegals yes, but do Republicans have signs against "mass immigration" from Asia, Europe, etc? Legal immigration?

No. I've never seen it on a state or national party level. I'm sure you can find some isolated rednecks or hillbillies in some local country or town, but as a party platform? No way. In fact Republicans, being pro-business tend to like skilled immigrants, more than Democrats, because Dems have to deal with labor unions. Where are the "nazi-like" anti-immigrant (legal immigrant) signs in America?? What Republican presidential candidate wants to limit legal immigration, get rid of the greencard lottery, etc? Well besides wacko Ron Paul, who has no hope of getting his party nomination.

I would agree. Neither major political party in the U.S. is truly "anti-immigrant" or xenophobic. There are some fringe groups/individuals that might be that way, but the majority of Americans welcome legal immigration. After all, allowing other cultures to bring their influences into the U.S. is, IMHO, one of the reasons that country became so strong.

amogles 21.10.2011 12:11

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
I think your rather over-the-top reaction proves that I have hit a nerve. You are reacting to things I never said and accusations I never made. From one thing I said you are projecting 100 things you think I said, or that maybe in your mind I said.

I was merely reacting to your statement that blood or ethno based nationalism is a thing that happens much more in Europe than in America. I provided a counter example that it also happens in America in a big way. I have travelled in America and I have even been to black ghettos and maybe you say only 25% of blacks live there, but for those 25% it is a reality. And you can't really compare the fact that many blacks in Europe have poorly paid jobs to America because most of those in Europe are recent immigrants whereas most in America have family roots going back hundreds of years. America has not genuinely healed the wounds of slavery. I know you say that it also happens in Europe but you previously said it doesn't happen in America. I don' see how saying it also happens in Europe proves it doesn't happen in America. Except of course if you believe that by definition and by magic everything must be better in America so the facts will just have to twist to accomodate that.

This almost standard. Americans come in and criticise stuff and say it's all so much better in America. When you tell them it isn't they start twisting the facts. Why is it that you have this urge to be the best at anything and will delude yourself into believing that you are by ultra-selectively interpreting facts? Can't you just accept that everybody is different but nobody is best? Don't you see the irony of your statements on a thread that is (of all things) about xenophobia. We Americans are better than you because we don't look down on other nations? Purleeeeease.

Or just forget it and go and vote for Herman Cain.

baboon 21.10.2011 12:14

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383520)
Most of the blacks I meet in Switzerland are refugees, blue collar workers, drug dealers, OR EDUCATED FOREIGN BORN. LOL

Perhaps because Switzerland has no colonial history nor any history of slavery or any other ties to Africa there is no established population that has had the time to integrate itself and advance socially. Thirty years ago the black population of Switzerland was close to zero. Not racism, just history.

Given that, perhaps it is rather unsurprising that the black population here is of the profile you mention. Also perhaps a fair comparison would be to very recently arrived groups in the US rather than the black population as a whole. How are the Haitians or Somalis doing for example.

However as the black population in the US has been there pretty well as long as most of the white population I do find it quite shocking that the social differences between the two groups are quite so large. I just checked the life expectancy numbers which you could argue is the ultimate measure of society - for Black Americans this is some 10 years shorter than White Americans.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:17

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1383554)
I think your rather over-the-top reaction proves that I have hit a nerve. You are reacting to things I never said and accusations I never made. From one thing I said you are projecting 100 things you think I said, or that maybe in your mind I said.

I was merely recating to your statement that blood or ethno based nationalism is a thing that happens much more in Europe than in America. I provided a counter example that it also happens in America in a big way. I have travelled in America and I have even been to black ghettos and maybe you say only 25% of blacks live there, but for those 25% it is a reality. And you can't really compare the fact that many blacks in Europa have poorly paid jobs to America because most of those in Europe are recent immigrants whereas most in America have family roots going back hundreds of years. America has not genuinely healed the wounds of slavery. I know you say that it also happens in Europe but you previously said it doesn't happen in America. I don' see how saying it also happens in Europe proves it doesn't happen in America. Except of course if you believe that by definition and by magic everything must be better in America so the facts will just have to twist to accomodate that.

You provided uninformed bull$#1t. That's about it.

No one said everything is better in the U.S. (that is your hang out, not mine, I know better, unlike you I'm not so nationalistic as I can't see faults, I even said America has both race and class problems, in case you didn't notice).

I never said it does not happen in the U.S., but it is not the norm.

As with anything it is a question of degree, not kind.

I guess this is over your head and I need to speak in smaller sentences.

As for the rest.

When Switzerland or any other nation in Europe has a population of 10-20% visible minorities. You then tell me how you handle it.

LOL

Reality is you can't even deal with white European Christian minorities, let alone people who look very different. You are playing minor league ball, we are playing professional ball.

Swiss people are freaking out over issues of identity with primarily legal European immigration the way white Americans (mostly Anglo=Saxon) freaked about about the Irish and Germans 150-200 years ago. You think any of this is new to an American? Any American who knows his own history knows it is not new at all, that is why we can't understand you, because we have gone through that stage and moved past it.

We are dealing with something far more complicated. Most of our immigrants (legal and illegal) come from Asia and Latin America. We are dealing with racial, ethnic/religious, etc on a scale that the average Swiss can't even comprehend. However we don't have neo-Nazi "mass immigration" signs and "black sheeP' nonsense all over the place, and most Americans still are not anti-immigration (not legal)...

That's where you are, compared to us.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:22

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baboon (Post 1383555)
Perhaps because Switzerland has no colonial history nor any history of slavery or any other ties to Africa there is no established population that has had the time to integrate itself and advance socially. Thirty years ago the black population of Switzerland was close to zero. Not racism, just history.

Given that, perhaps it is rather unsurprising that the black population here is of the profile you mention. Also perhaps a fair comparison would be to very recently arrived groups in the US rather than the black population as a whole. How are the Haitians or Somalis doing for example.

However as the black population in the US has been there pretty well as long as most of the white population I do find it quite shocking that the social differences between the two groups are quite so large. I just checked the life expectancy numbers which you could argue is the ultimate measure of society - for Black Americans this is some 10 years shorter than White Americans.

I didnt' bring up the topic, amogles Swiss did.

It is apples and oranges.

As I already said, no major group in America is against legal immigration (for work, refugees, etc), no political party, and no presidential candidate, no party platform, etc.

The only issue is illegal immigration. We also accept that anyone born in the U.S., regardless of the status of their parents is a U.S. citizen.

When you compare that to Switzerland (a direct comparison)...you can see where we are at.

You can also see why the Swiss person wanted to talk about African Americans, and not make a direct comparison with immigrants.

baboon 21.10.2011 12:22

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383563)
When Switzerland or any other nation in Europe has a population of 10-20% visible minorities. You then tell me how you handle it.

Ever been to the UK?

amogles 21.10.2011 12:22

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383563)
You provided uninformed bull$#1t. That's about it.

No one said everything is better in the U.S. (that is your hang out, not mine, I know better, unlike you I'm not so nationalistic as I can't see faults, I even said America has both race and class problems, in case you didn't notice).

I never said it does not happen in the U.S., but it is not the norm.

As with anything it is a question of degree, not kind.

I guess this is over your head and I need to speak in smaller sentences.

As for the rest.

When Switzerland or any other nation in Europe has a population of 10-20% visible minorities. You then tell me how you handle it.

LOL

Reality is you can't even deal with white European Christian minorities, let alone people who look very different. You are playing minor league ball, we are playing professional ball.

Swiss people are freaking out over issues of identity with primarily legal European immigration the way white Americans (mostly Anglo=Saxon) freaked about about the Irish and Germans 150-200 years ago. You think any of this is new to an American? Any American who knows his own history knows it is not new at all, that is why we can't understand you, because we have gone through that stage and moved past it.

We are dealing with something far more complicated. Most of our immigrants (legal and illegal) come from Asia and Latin America. We are dealing with racial, ethnic/religious, etc on a scale that the average Swiss can't even comprehend. However we don't have neo-Nazi "mass immigration" signs and "black sheeP' nonsense all over the place, and most Americans still are not anti-immigration (not legal)...

That's where you are, compared to us.

Hint: people trapped in a hole shouldn't dig any deeper.

take a deep breath, take off your rose tinted spectacles, and think about the utter irony of what you just wrote as I can't be arsed to expalin it to you.

baboon 21.10.2011 12:26

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383570)
I didnt' bring up the topic, amogles Swiss did.

It is apples and oranges.

As I already said, no major group in America is against legal immigration (for work, refugees, etc), no political party, and no presidential candidate, no party platform, etc.

The only issue is illegal immigration. We also accept that anyone born in the U.S., regardless of the status of their parents is a U.S. citizen.

When you compare that to Switzerland (a direct comparison)...you can see where we are at.

You can also see why the Swiss person wanted to talk about African Americans, and not make a direct comparison with immigrants.

Then why does the entirity of your post 201 which I was answering talk repeatedly about "Black" and never once mention illegal immegrants?

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:29

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baboon (Post 1383571)
Ever been to the UK?

Yes, and if you look at there demographics no it is nowhere close to the U.S. sorry. The country in Europe closest to us would be France, and that is still not there, maybe 10-12% black/Arab and you can see they live far worse than blacks and Arabs in America in terms of political power, income, education level, etc.

The UK outside of London or a couple of other cities is VERY WHITE and Indigenous...well unless you are counting Scots, Irish, Welsh, and England as different races. Maybe "redheads" (gingers are a different race for the English).;)

Demographics on the UK

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/uk.html

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:30

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baboon (Post 1383579)
Then why does the entirity of your post 201 which I was answering talk repeatedly about "Black" and never once mention illegal immegrants?

because I was answering him. Follow the thread please.

He mentioned blacks first. He implied all blacks live in ghettos and whites live in nice surburbs which is completely and total bull$#1t. I'm not going to spell it out for you, it is clear for you to see.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:31

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1383572)
Hint: people trapped in a hole shouldn't dig any deeper.

take a deep breath, take off your rose tinted spectacles, and think about the utter irony of what you just wrote as I can't be arsed to expalin it to you.


ROFLMAO I do live in a hole or void, it is called Switzerland.:msngrin: I call it "hillbilly heaven" But I wont' be here in 3 weeks. I'm going back to Civilization (and no I'm not referring to the U.S., there are many other nations out there that are better).

Calvin 21.10.2011 12:34

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
[QUOTE=AmericanGotWorkVisa;1383563]
We are dealing with something far more complicated. Most of our immigrants (legal and illegal) come from Asia and Latin America. We are dealing with racial, ethnic/religious, etc on a scale that the average Swiss can't even comprehend. However we don't have neo-Nazi "mass immigration" signs and "black sheeP' nonsense all over the place, and most Americans still are not anti-immigration (not legal)... QUOTE]

Maybe you don't have "black sheep posters" in the US but Fox news, the tea party dimwits and all these crazy radio hosts certainely make up for that with all their scaremongering against Muslims, gays or whatever.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:36

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
[QUOTE=Calvin;1383590]
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383563)
We are dealing with something far more complicated. Most of our immigrants (legal and illegal) come from Asia and Latin America. We are dealing with racial, ethnic/religious, etc on a scale that the average Swiss can't even comprehend. However we don't have neo-Nazi "mass immigration" signs and "black sheeP' nonsense all over the place, and most Americans still are not anti-immigration (not legal)...QUOTE]

Maybe you don't have "black sheep posters" in the US but Fox news, the tea party dimwits and all these crazy radio hosts certainely make up for that with all their scaremongering against Muslims, gays or whatever.

We are not talking about gays or Muslims.

Please tell me a nation in Europe where Muslims live better than in the U.S.?

Show me statistics from a reputable, and I will accept it.

I'm not interested in discussing gays. YOu want to talk immigrants. Fine.

foxnews is part of the diversity of American media, you may not agree with them (and I usually don't...usually) but you can see it all, from Fox News to ultra-liberal MSNBC...however, as I said, no anti-immigrant party (not speaking about illegal immigrants) has 1/3 or even 10% of the American publics support.

tom tulpe 21.10.2011 12:40

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
[QUOTE=AmericanGotWorkVisa;1383595]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 1383590)

We are not talking about gays or Muslims.

Please tell me a nation in Europe where Muslims live better than in the U.S.?

Show me statistics from a reputable, and I will accept it.

I'm not interested in discussing gays. YOu want to talk immigrants. Fine.

We were talking scaremongering and hatemongering in general. SVP targets immigrants, havong moved on from "foreign criminals". Shock jocks in the US target other minorities. Arizona targets anyone who looks like they might be an illegal immigrant (what would that mean other than "who looks Latino"). France is admittedly in denial.

Me Myself & I 21.10.2011 12:42

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383563)
However we don't have neo-Nazi "mass immigration" signs and "black sheeP' nonsense all over the place, and most Americans still are not anti-immigration (not legal)...

I am not American and neither am I European; I am of Asian origin but brought up in beautiful Africa and have spent a lot of time in USA & Europe. I am what you call a third culture kid. I moved to this country as my lovely Swiss wife wanted to come home. And I do like it apart from the following:

My only issue with SVP is with their disgusting plakats/posters. Everyone has the right to a life and society free of racism and discrimination but when I wake up every morning, walk to the train station and am constantly reminded of how I am not wanted here through highly offensive and visual campaigns, it really disturbs me. It disturbs many of us. My wife even voted for the first time in her life as she saw how much SVP's campaigns affected me as it affects my mood especially during voting.

Perhaps I might still be young and never experienced the race problems in America, but during my 5 years in the USA (1998-2003), I never saw such offensive and discriminatory posters as the SVP repeatedly, officially and legally produces here. This is my issue with them. If people want to vote for them, fine, it's their loss and their right. But do I have to be offended in order for them to get their job done? I know it's legal here but that's not right. It hurts the innocent 'auslanders' of which we are the majority.

I can feel how angry AmericanGotWorkVisa is as am I, and I do understand where amogles is coming from, but things like SVP's posters prove to me that there is a massive difference between the thinking in the USA and here.

baboon 21.10.2011 12:44

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383580)
Yes, and if you look at there demographics no it is nowhere close to the U.S. sorry.

Never said it was close to the US, you asked for a country in Europe with 10% - 20% visible minorities. The current estimate for the UK is ~13% - it's grown quite a bit recently, particularly in the "mixed race" category.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:46

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
[QUOTE=tom tulpe;1383603]
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1383595)
We were talking scaremongering and hatemongering in general. SVP targets immigrants, havong moved on from "foreign criminals". Shock jocks in the US target other minorities. Arizona targets anyone who looks like they might be an illegal immigrant (what would that mean other than "who looks Latino"). France is admittedly in denial.

No it is not about "fear mongering". Because every nation has those types. Everyone I've been to anyway.

The issue is "the % of people who buy into it and why".

Arizona has a serious illegal immigration problem with the national government is not dealing with (due to deadlock)...so they have overreacted in a stupid way. Yes, I said it, stupid!

Arizona has 6 million people. It is slightly smaller than Switzerland and so it is only 1.9% of the U.S. population.

This is like saying that what happens in Appenzel represents Switzerland.:rolleyes:

If 1/3 of U.S. states or even 25% passed similar laws I would be heavily concerned. That's not the case.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.10.2011 12:46

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baboon (Post 1383609)
Never said it was close to the US, you asked for a country in Europe with 10% - 20% visible minorities. The current estimate for the UK is ~13% - it's grown quite a bit recently, particularly in the "mixed race" category.

I'm curious..."visible"? How many of them are Eastern Europeans? Are most Polish people "visible"? Some are, but most?


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:44.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0