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  #2321  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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UTH Zurich ranks among the Top 20 worldwide. It's interesting to note that over 30 percent of the professors at this university are from Germany.
And some Austrians
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  #2322  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:27
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Switzerland is the only European country in the Top 20. As I wrote before, UK is not actually considered European, and it has three for year 2013-2014. Brussels beating their chest and Germany howling from the roof tops didn't even rank! In fact if you average that out, it means that at least 27 other countries with all those hundreds of millions of people couldn't out rank tiny Switzerland. Oh dear...Which proves my point even more. "EU is bigger, but not smarter." I'm not interested in your other ramblings...Switzerland can keep their contribution and use it within the country...sounds like a deal to me.
I hope you are smart enough to understand that high ranking does not equals high intelligence...:roll eyes:

It's like this: Higher funding = higher ranking - very simple equations for dummies :roll eyes:

here is a list of the most innovative countries - that's what counts in the end:
http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...2014-countries
Sweden is 2nd, and they have not even an University below rank 50...
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  #2323  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Do you have sources that back these statements up (genuine question, I'm interested in these details)?
I can tell you as a researcher working with the EU for a long time:

Easy: Switzerland performs well, then it gets more than what it spends.

Country that do not perform well, get less than what they spend.

Associated country with no free movement only get what they spend.

Ergo: Switzerland will lose money as they cannot count on the benefit of performing well.

The official position is that Switzerland will participate with its own 1.8 Bilion budget.

We are short 500 milion/1 bilion than what we could have achieved without this Massenblablabla.
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  #2324  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Who cares...this is nothing but the EU poking themselves in the face. The money Switzerland was paying to subsidize this program can be used for something else. EU will have to try again. Funny how not one European country has a university in the Top 20 universities in the world except Switzerland. UK has three but they aren't really considered European...interesting.
UK is in the EU. They are so much in the EU that if you are an EU citizen you can go there and establish there without doing anything else.
Lived there for three years.

Ranking: it depends on money spent, and as a matter of facts, your country stole a lot from the EU .
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Old 17.02.2014, 19:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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UTH Zurich ranks among the Top 20 worldwide. It's interesting to note that over 30 percent of the professors at this university are from Germany.
Yeah, OK...This is why the statistics that collects information about the countries of appointment of the new professors is of high importance. In fact, Germany is losing its impact as a recruiting country to other European locations and, above all, the USA. in 2010, the United States provided 35% of the new professors compared to Germany with only 15%. At the same time, the number of German professors who are appointed to ETH Zurich is decreasing. On average during the course of ten years, their share was 32.5% - in 2009, it was down to 19%. Professors from all over the world want to work at ETH. Switzerland has been kind enough to let them in because it's so innovative! But that's going to change and there will be more talent recruited from within Switzerland. Still it doesn't change the fact that no other European country ranked in the Top 20 of universities worldwide except Switzerland. If you want to include UK they ranked with three. Maybe the German professors can stay home now and help Germany get in the rankings...
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Old 17.02.2014, 19:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I hope you are smart enough to understand that high ranking does not equals high intelligence...:roll eyes:

It's like this: Higher funding = higher ranking - very simple equations for dummies :roll eyes:

here is a list of the most innovative countries - that's what counts in the end:
http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...2014-countries
Sweden is 2nd, and they have not even an University below rank 50...
Don't kid yourself...nice try.

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UK is in the EU. They are so much in the EU that if you are an EU citizen you can go there and establish there without doing anything else.
Lived there for three years.

Ranking: it depends on money spent, and as a matter of facts, your country stole a lot from the EU .
Oh dear...now we're getting delusional as well!
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  #2327  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Don't kid yourself...nice try.

Oh dear...now we're getting delusional as well!
reality bites much...

must be nice with selective denial...
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  #2328  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yeah, OK...This is why the statistics that collects information about the countries of appointment of the new professors is of high importance. In fact, Germany is losing its impact as a recruiting country to other European locations and, above all, the USA. in 2010, the United States provided 35% of the new professors compared to Germany with only 15%. At the same time, the number of German professors who are appointed to ETH Zurich is decreasing. On average during the course of ten years, their share was 32.5% - in 2009, it was down to 19%. Professors from all over the world want to work at ETH. Switzerland has been kind enough to let them in because it's so innovative! But that's going to change and there will be more talent recruited from within Switzerland. Still it doesn't change the fact that no other European country ranked in the Top 20 of universities worldwide except Switzerland. If you want to include UK they ranked with three. Maybe the German professors can stay home now and help Germany get in the rankings...
again with the ranking...let it go, it is not even relevant in this discussion...
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  #2329  
Old 17.02.2014, 20:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Switzerland is the only European country in the Top 20. As I wrote before, UK is not actually considered European, and it has three for year 2013-2014. Brussels beating their chest and Germany howling from the roof tops didn't even rank! In fact if you average that out, it means that at least 27 other countries with all those hundreds of millions of people couldn't out rank tiny Switzerland. Oh dear...Which proves my point even more. "EU is bigger, but not smarter." I'm not interested in your other ramblings...Switzerland can keep their contribution and use it within the country...sounds like a deal to me.
Selective sourcing, at best.
I apologize, ICL is 21st, not 20th.

So, the EU has 4 in the top 21 in the world. And 5 in the top 32. And 6 in the top 36. And 7 in the top 38. And 8 in the top 39.

The UK has been considered European to the extent that it has been able to take part in the ERASMUS programme (and the Horizon programme) for decades.

OSueco's link has a tab that says R&D Intensity rank. This is probably the most appropriate tab to consider since research is by definition part of R&D. You will notice, switzerland is 8th. Below Sweden, Finland and Denmark. All EU countries. you take away a large chunk of funding and guess what? Switzerland drops even further. Germany is hot on your tails.

PJ, you take flogging a dead horse to new heights. If you honestly believe that the UK is not part of the EU, or that the presence of one institution in the top 20 means the average swiss is more intelligent than the average European, than you are more than a few french fries short of a happy meal.

Food for thought: If the UK has three, and Switzerland has one, by your logic that would mean every brit is, on average, three times more intelligent than every Swiss. From the tripe you're coming out with, i'm in danger of believing that.
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  #2330  
Old 17.02.2014, 20:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Great reply!

I swear sometimes the arrogance of these guys...
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  #2331  
Old 17.02.2014, 21:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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reality bites much...

must be nice with selective denial...
You still lose...

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again with the ranking...let it go, it is not even relevant in this discussion...
I agree...

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Selective sourcing, at best.
I apologize, ICL is 21st, not 20th.

So, the EU has 4 in the top 21 in the world. And 5 in the top 32. And 6 in the top 36. And 7 in the top 38. And 8 in the top 39.

The UK has been considered European to the extent that it has been able to take part in the ERASMUS programme (and the Horizon programme) for decades.

OSueco's link has a tab that says R&D Intensity rank. This is probably the most appropriate tab to consider since research is by definition part of R&D. You will notice, switzerland is 8th. Below Sweden, Finland and Denmark. All EU countries. you take away a large chunk of funding and guess what? Switzerland drops even further. Germany is hot on your tails.

PJ, you take flogging a dead horse to new heights. If you honestly believe that the UK is not part of the EU, or that the presence of one institution in the top 20 means the average swiss is more intelligent than the average European, than you are more than a few french fries short of a happy meal.

Food for thought: If the UK has three, and Switzerland has one, by your logic that would mean every brit is, on average, three times more intelligent than every Swiss. From the tripe you're coming out with, i'm in danger of believing that.
By your logic...You are stretching it a bit aren't you? I know you are desperate but give yourself a break. You've gone through a lot to prove nothing...let it go.
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  #2332  
Old 17.02.2014, 21:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You still lose...

I agree...

By your logic...You are stretching it a bit aren't you? I know you are desperate but give yourself a break. You've gone through a lot to prove nothing...let it go.
Not exactly the best argument of the year... let it go

I don't mind saying hello to the border police every morning in the S-Bahn. Fine with me. If they controle passports carefully every day, one will surely end up getting good friends. Sex is fine too.
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  #2333  
Old 17.02.2014, 21:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The discussion is somehow getting out of hand...

These research programs are important for the universities and it doesn't matter at all how these universities are ranked. This has nothing to do with money either. Switzerland "losing" 1 ,2 or 5 billion by being or not being in these programs is not really an argument for anything. If this had been the price to resolve the immigration related issues, we would have gladly paid it. The whole money calculations are anyway worthless if one does not calculate the drawbacks (infrastructure) and benefits (economic growth) of immigration into the calculation as well as the future development of it which is hard to predict.

And this is anyway only an economical perspective, which, and this might shock some of you, is not the only perspective that is important.


Accepting this initiative was a risk. It was clear that it would harm the relationship with the EU in one way or another. The exact long-term influence of it was and is unknown, but apparently the voters were ready to accept that risk even if some advantages of the contracts would be lost in the process. Horizon2020 and Erasmus+ are all good and well, but they are hardly the backbone of Swiss society.
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  #2334  
Old 17.02.2014, 21:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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ditto, Switzerland wanted the Bilaterals including the FMOP and knew very well that the FMOP is not negotiable…if the Swiss didn't want it why did they vote for it?

Because our dear government told us that no more than 8000 people per year would come in?!
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Old 17.02.2014, 22:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The vote is juridically the death of the bilaterals. But juridical logic is one thing, political logic another one.

The people has voted, good or bad, they could very well vote differently in some years... in this thread, people forget easily that many issues had to be voted for several times, from summer time to women vote right. Coming back on it is a normal situation in this country. Why thw EU trusted Switzerland to keep its word and signature for ever is a mistake the EU made. Let them learn and just wait and see. There were frontaliers before any agreement with EU, there will be no matter what.

The technicallities of job recrutement ar not exactly something worth being measured against state treaties in my opinion but I do not demand my opinion to be heard before every Swiss voting. If the Swiss end up seeing a mistake in this vote, there will be another initiative, if not, there won't.

Politics gets in the way of dry legal logic often, one can consider it can be for good or bad reasons, but it does. Time is the answer. In always is after a vote.
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  #2336  
Old 17.02.2014, 22:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The discussion is somehow getting out of hand...

These research programs are important for the universities and it doesn't matter at all how these universities are ranked. This has nothing to do with money either. Switzerland "losing" 1 ,2 or 5 billion by being or not being in these programs is not really an argument for anything. If this had been the price to resolve the immigration related issues, we would have gladly paid it. The whole money calculations are anyway worthless if one does not calculate the drawbacks (infrastructure) and benefits (economic growth) of immigration into the calculation as well as the future development of it which is hard to predict.

And this is anyway only an economical perspective, which, and this might shock some of you, is not the only perspective that is important.


Accepting this initiative was a risk. It was clear that it would harm the relationship with the EU in one way or another. The exact long-term influence of it was and is unknown, but apparently the voters were ready to accept that risk even if some advantages of the contracts would be lost in the process. Horizon2020 and Erasmus+ are all good and well, but they are hardly the backbone of Swiss society.


Aebischer Vs Fabienne Despot, Round 1, Fight:

http://www.rts.ch/audio/la-1ere/prog...7-02-2014.html


Aebischer..... Fatality.... !!!


On the serious side: Aebischer contradicts you totally.

Someone teaching you differential equations as they should be taught is not a negative effect. .
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  #2337  
Old 17.02.2014, 22:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Because our dear government told us that no more than 8000 people per year would come in?!
Free….Movement….Of…People….

so the Swiss though that open doors to Switzerland would only get annually 8000? maybe back in 1907...
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  #2338  
Old 17.02.2014, 22:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Free….Movement….Of…People….

so the Swiss though that open doors to Switzerland would only get annually 8000? maybe back in 1907...
8000 was more than the number of people coming in with the regular quota system in place until the Bilateral treaties went into effect. Anyway - the bilateral way is dead now and the more of those condescending comment I keep reading here the more I think that this is probably a good thing.
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  #2339  
Old 17.02.2014, 23:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future B permits will be given only to people who can demonstrate at least B1 level of German/French/Italian (depending on the canton where they intend to live).
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Old 17.02.2014, 23:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I wouldn't be surprised if in the future B permits will be given only to people who can demonstrate at least B1 level of German/French/Italian (depending on the canton where they intend to live).
14 years here and speak German fluently and without any certification...
...overrated useless crap...especially in the Swiss-German parts
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