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  #2381  
Old 18.02.2014, 12:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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  #2382  
Old 18.02.2014, 13:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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marton I understand that this is an emotional topic for you but I think you should read a bit more about the issues at hand before making judgements on situation which, quite frankly, I doubt you understand.

Just yesterday the NZZ released figures of the Valais, where regional unemployment is as high as 14%, simply due to the fact that these seasonal EU workers in construction don't want employment in winter, as they've already signed their new contracts in spring which allows them to enjoy winter back home with their families all financed by Swiss unemployment benefits. Construction companies obviously benefit greatly from this agreement as these workers stay with them for years while the companies only provide them with temporary contracts. The workers themselves are happy enough with the arrangement too as salaries and unemployment benefits are generous.

This is exactly the reason why the SVP wants to reintroduce seasonal work permits, which only allow you to stay as long as your work contract states and where you can't draw unemployment benefits or IV later on (back-related issues are hard to disprove, and are very common in the construction sector). With the free movement of people came the same mentality of fleecing the state as is apparent all over Southern Europe, and that IS a big deal, not just a flea on the back of an elephant as you so kindly stated.

Much of the business sector knows very well that they'd have no problems selling and buying from the EU even without the bilaterals, there is EFTA after all and WTO... but they also know that they couldn't abuse the system quite as easily as they do know, hiring EU graduates for the price of simple admin staff... I know because I've previously worked for one of the largest employers in Switzerland and Europe, and the salary dumping was very real, they simply couldn't employ any Swiss anymore for what they were willing to pay.
About "Marton I understand that this is an emotional topic for you" - Not really, I am Swiss.

About "Valais, where regional unemployment is as high as 14%" - population of Valais is around 300K so 14% is circa 40K; as I wrote this is small compared to the circa 2M foreigners here.
Anyway my comment was about welfare tourists; - clearly this group are workers.
Whether the entire reason for their unemployment is seasonal or is related to the second home vote is also a good question. Not sure you understood that the second home vote has caused a major reduction in construction in Valais. Canton Valais has the most holiday homes; circa 62,000.

About "This is exactly the reason why the SVP wants to reintroduce seasonal work permits, which only allow you to stay as long as your work contract states". Actually this is not a bad idea but it is not in the Masseneinwanderung initiative text which is the subject of this thread and has nothing to do with the welfare tourists we were discussing?

Last edited by marton; 18.02.2014 at 13:55. Reason: Spelling again :(
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  #2383  
Old 18.02.2014, 13:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Just yesterday the NZZ released figures of the Valais, where regional unemployment is as high as 14%, simply due to the fact that these seasonal EU workers in construction don't want employment in winter, as they've already signed their new contracts in spring which allows them to enjoy winter back home with their families all financed by Swiss unemployment benefits. Construction companies obviously benefit greatly from this agreement as these workers stay with them for years while the companies only provide them with temporary contracts. The workers themselves are happy enough with the arrangement too as salaries and unemployment benefits are generous.
just to clarify for you:

it is not the workers who don't want employment during the winter, it is the companies who fires the employees before the winter (otherwise they would not get RAV - http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch/arbe...rste_schritte/ - or in this case since the companies will say that they will re-hire them later) and re-hiring them in the spring.

This is something that SWISS construction companies has put in system and is abusing now and but is allowed by the Swiss law ()
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  #2384  
Old 18.02.2014, 14:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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just to clarify for you:

it is not the workers who don't want employment during the winter, it is the companies who fires the employees before the winter (otherwise they would not get RAV - http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch/arbe...rste_schritte/ - or in this case since the companies will say that they will re-hire them later) and re-hiring them in the spring.

This is something that SWISS construction companies has put in system and is abusing now and but is allowed by the Swiss law ()
so simon_ch, what's your answer to that? or have you run out of stereotypes?
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  #2385  
Old 18.02.2014, 15:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Another friendly reminder to please avoid personal attacks and flame-baiting. Thanks.
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  #2386  
Old 18.02.2014, 16:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No one is claiming they are.

But what they are, and what everyone here is saying, is that they are significant. They are significant contributions to Switzerland. They are significant statements of intent. They are the clearest sign yet that the EU is not going to take this lying down. That is the important perspective here.

Regarding your last point, the divisive issue is not that people voted for this...its how ill prepared they seemed to have been. Many of my colleagues voted yes, but when we discussed the possible loss of funding from H2020 this morning, they were genuinely shocked. They didn't realize things like that were at stake. They genuinely did not realize the economic impact of this vote, because they were led to believe there wasn't really any. At one of our manufacturing plants that we are considering closing, (its in rural switzerland) most voted yes. When i pointed out that if the FMOG treaty was cancelled, it would significantly increase the chances that they would lose their jobs and the plant would be closed, they were shocked. These are not 16 year old apprentices, they are 40-50 year old engineers and tradesmen.

There is almost a feeling that many of the swiss were voting for something they did not truly understand, and still do not, but that the decision they made will not affect them, it affects those who are trying to give back to Switzerland.

So to your point, no, they are not the backbone of the swiss economy. But they are a useful yardstick as to which way the wind is blowing.

Yea right swiss are people are stupid .Let me tell you my feelings .For me Switzerland has become to small in 1965, that`s why I never returned. Back to the vote "Swiss people want a cap on immigration ".Just because You like to live in a city like London means noting to us .Most swiss people like to live in in a country style environment. If the loosing some monetary comfort , so be it
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  #2387  
Old 18.02.2014, 17:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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just to clarify for you:

it is not the workers who don't want employment during the winter, it is the companies who fires the employees before the winter (otherwise they would not get RAV - http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch/arbe...rste_schritte/ - or in this case since the companies will say that they will re-hire them later) and re-hiring them in the spring.

This is something that SWISS construction companies has put in system and is abusing now and but is allowed by the Swiss law ()

Welcome to north America. I for one would not like to pour asfalt when it is minus 25 C. Uh I forgot ! there is always piking apples
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  #2388  
Old 18.02.2014, 17:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yea right swiss are people are stupid .Let me tell you my feelings .For me Switzerland has become to small in 1965, that`s why I never returned. Back to the vote "Swiss people want a cap on immigration ".Just because You like to live in a city like London means noting to us .Most swiss people like to live in in a country style environment. If the loosing some monetary comfort , so be it

What on earth are you talking about?

What has FMOP got to do with urbanisation?

In what way did the EU force switzerland to build cities like London?
More to the point, can you name a single city in Switzerland even remotely like London?

You, sir, prove my point.
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  #2389  
Old 18.02.2014, 17:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Welcome to north America. I for one would not like to pour asfalt when it is minus 25 C. Uh I forgot ! there is always piking apples

Probably why that job goes to immigrants who dont have a problem with it.
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  #2390  
Old 18.02.2014, 17:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What on earth are you talking about?

What has FMOP got to do with urbanisation?

In what way did the EU force switzerland to build cities like London?
More to the point, can you name a single city in Switzerland even remotely like London?

You, sir, prove my point.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Ask tom he has more patience the I
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  #2391  
Old 18.02.2014, 17:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Ask tom he has more patience the I
Good argument. bye-bye.
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  #2392  
Old 18.02.2014, 17:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"However, the host Member State is not obliged to grant entitlement to social security during the first three months of residence to persons other than employed or self-employed workers and the members of their family."
You missed a bit before that sentence:

Union citizens qualifying for the right of residence or the right of permanent residence and the members of their family also benefit from equal treatment with host-country nationals in the areas covered by the Treaty. However, the host Member State is not obliged to grant entitlement to social security during the first three months of residence to persons other than employed or self-employed workers and the members of their family.

but in any case, that is not the right document. try this:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...30(01):EN:HTML

In particular Article 2:

Non-discrimination

Nationals of one Contracting Party who are lawfully resident in the territory of another Contracting Party shall not, in application of and in accordance with the provisions of Annexes I, II and III to this Agreement, be the subject of any discrimination on grounds of nationality.


Also Annex I, Article 9:

Equal treatment
1. An employed person who is a national of a Contracting Party may not, by reason of his nationality, be treated differently in the territory of the other Contracting Party from national employed persons as regards conditions of employment and working conditions, especially as regards pay, dismissal, or reinstatement or re-employment if he becomes unemployed.
2. An employed person and the members of his family referred to in Article 3 of this Annex shall enjoy the same tax concessions and welfare benefits as national employed persons and members of their family.
3. He shall also be entitled on the same basis and on the same terms as national employed persons to education in vocational training establishments and in vocational retraining and occupational rehabilitation centres.
4. Any clause in a collective or individual agreement or in any other collective arrangements concerning access to employment, employment, pay and other terms of employment and dismissal, shall be automatically void insofar as it provides for or authorises discriminatory conditions with respect to foreign employed persons who are nationals of the Contracting Parties.
5. An employed person who is a national of a Contracting Party and is employed in the territory of the other Contracting Party shall enjoy equal treatment in terms of membership of trade union organisations and exercise of union rights, including the right to vote and right of access to executive or managerial positions within a trade union organisation; he may be precluded from involvement in the management of public law bodies and from holding an office governed by public law. He shall, moreover, have the right to be eligible for election to bodies representing employees in an undertaking.
These provisions shall be without prejudice to laws or regulations in the host state which confer more extensive rights on employed persons from the other Contracting Party.
6. Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 26 of this Annex, an employed person who is a national of a Contracting Party and employed in the territory of the other Contracting Party shall enjoy all the rights and all the advantages accorded to national employed persons in terms of housing, including ownership of the housing he needs.
Such a worker shall have the same right as nationals to register on the housing lists in the region in which he is employed, where such lists exist; he shall enjoy the resultant benefits and priorities.
If his family has remained in his state of provenance, it shall be considered for this purpose as residing in the said region, where national workers benefit from a similar presumption.
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  #2393  
Old 18.02.2014, 18:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You missed a bit before that sentence:

Union citizens qualifying for the right of residence or the right of permanent residence and the members of their family also benefit from equal treatment with host-country nationals in the areas covered by the Treaty. However, the host Member State is not obliged to grant entitlement to social security during the first three months of residence to persons other than employed or self-employed workers and the members of their family.

but in any case, that is not the right document. try this:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...30(01):EN:HTML

In particular Article 2:

Non-discrimination

Nationals of one Contracting Party who are lawfully resident in the territory of another Contracting Party shall not, in application of and in accordance with the provisions of Annexes I, II and III to this Agreement, be the subject of any discrimination on grounds of nationality.

Also Annex I, Article 9:

Equal treatment
1. An employed person who is a national of a Contracting Party may not, by reason of his nationality, be treated differently in the territory of the other Contracting Party from national employed persons as regards conditions of employment and working conditions, especially as regards pay, dismissal, or reinstatement or re-employment if he becomes unemployed.
2. An employed person and the members of his family referred to in Article 3 of this Annex shall enjoy the same tax concessions and welfare benefits as national employed persons and members of their family.
3.
To be fair to Kosti, that refers to employed people who, presumably, are giving to the state. For them its only fair that they recieve the same benefits, no?

It doesnt cover unemployed people, which is who welfare tourism is all about.
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  #2394  
Old 18.02.2014, 18:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yea right swiss are people are stupid .Let me tell you my feelings .For me Switzerland has become to small in 1965, that`s why I never returned. Back to the vote "Swiss people want a cap on immigration ".Just because You like to live in a city like London means noting to us .Most swiss people like to live in in a country style environment. If the loosing some monetary comfort , so be it
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Good argument. bye-bye.

Argument you looking for here we go


First word "DENSITY" London big density, very big .Swiss want small density. Immigration increases Density ,swiss people like small density. Cap immigration=cap density Me and tom understand "Density ,me and tom are smart, you are ! never mind

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Old 18.02.2014, 18:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I find this article about German Chancellor Merkel's response quite sensible:

BERLIN (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Tuesday she regretted the results of a Swiss referendum in favor of immigration curbs and said the challenge now was for Switzerland to implement the results while maintaining close ties to the European Union.
"I regret the decision of the vote in Switzerland but our talk was in the spirit that we respect it," Merkel said at a news conference with Swiss President Didier Burkhalter.
"The challenge will now be that we deal with the results in a way that relations between the European Union and Switzerland remain as intense as possible with respect for the referendum," she added.
On February 9 Swiss voters narrowly backed proposals to curtail immigration from the EU. The vote was initiated by the right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP), which tapped into concerns that Swiss culture is being eroded by foreigners, who account for nearly a quarter of the country's population.
(Reporting by Noah Barkin and Stephen Brown; writing by Erik Kirschbaum)


The article is here. IMHO, the wording in bold means that the EU respects the Swiss vote and the idea now is to work "with" the Swiss, not against. Which is the most intelligent way to proceed. However, I expect some/many of you to disagree, but it is what it is.
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Old 18.02.2014, 18:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Argument you looking for here we go


First word "DENSITY" London big density, very big .Swiss want small density. Immigration increases Density ,swiss people like small density. Cap immigration=cap density Me and tom understand "Density ,me and tom are smart, you are ! never mind
If i understand you correctly, you're worried about population density? Im not actually sure, your english isnt easy to understand.

Just confirm something for me...are you saying you think reducing the net immigration by a few tens of thousand, is going to result in an immediate and significant drop in population density?

I would suggest you read up on urbanisation. It would stop you appearing a bit foolish. It was going on long before the immigrants came, and will continue long after you impose your limits, no matter how draconian they are.

The impact of immigration to urbanisation is small; it is due to a whole range of factors including individual, commercial, social, and governmental.

Also, can you repost, but make the third word in the quotation marks a bit larger? I cant read it.
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Old 18.02.2014, 18:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Argument you looking for here we go


First word "DENSITY" London big density, very big .Swiss want small density. Immigration increases Density ,swiss people like small density. Cap immigration=cap density Me and tom understand "Density ,me and tom are smart, you are ! never mind

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If i understand you correctly, you're worried about population density? Im not actually sure, your english isnt easy to understand.

Just confirm something for me...are you saying you think reducing the net immigration by a few tens of thousand, is going to result in an immediate and significant drop in population density?

I would suggest you read up on urbanisation. It would stop you appearing a bit foolish. It was going on long before the immigrants came, and will continue long after you impose your limits, no matter how draconian they are.

The impact of immigration to urbanisation is small; it is due to a whole range of factors including individual, commercial, social, and governmental.

Also, can you repost, but make the third word in the quotation marks a bit larger? I cant read it.

Second word "Cap"

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Old 18.02.2014, 18:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Well maybe introduce the one child one family policy (correction: thats maybe one family one child haha ) of the Chinese.The Chinese are very clever!
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If i understand you correctly, you're worried about population density? Im not actually sure, your english isnt easy to understand.

Just confirm something for me...are you saying you think reducing the net immigration by a few tens of thousand, is going to result in an immediate and significant drop in population density?

I would suggest you read up on urbanisation. It would stop you appearing a bit foolish. It was going on long before the immigrants came, and will continue long after you impose your limits, no matter how draconian they are.

The impact of immigration to urbanisation is small; it is due to a whole range of factors including individual, commercial, social, and governmental.

Also, can you repost, but make the third word in the quotation marks a bit larger? I cant read it.
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Old 18.02.2014, 19:15
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

When I listen to him I have the feeling there's a screw loose somewhere. It's just a gut feelin.

http://www.srf.ch/player/tv/news-cli...d-29b403597e5e
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Old 18.02.2014, 19:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Argument you looking for here we go


First word "DENSITY" London big density, very big .Swiss want small density. Immigration increases Density ,swiss people like small density. Cap immigration=cap density Me and tom understand "Density ,me and tom are smart, you are ! never mind

if the Swiss don't want so many immigrants why did they agree to it in the first place?

Your statement doesn't make any sense if you look at the whole history of immigration in Switzerland, i.e. what you are stating is the opposite of the todays situation which the Swiss people has decided on...

I assume nobody forced the Swiss to accept all these people coming here or?

so what you are also saying regarding cap immigration = cap density = smart = 50% of Swiss are not smart?
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