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  #2581  
Old 20.02.2014, 14:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Who cares about repercussions from the EU? The EU is going tits up anyway.
One thing has to be handed to UDC: their timing was impeccable and can only be covered with this



I mean - how in the world do you hit this out of the park when there are EU parliament elections coming, the extreme right/left throughout Europe are revving up and most are thinking about reshaping their relationship with the EU (UK, for one)... Scotland is considering their own letterhead and France/Germany/Denmark/Italy are suffering immigration like never before? Timing was da bomb.

Now, back to the topic at hand: I'm unclear why there is no distinction between the free crossing of borders and that of actual establishment/relocation. Sure, you're welcome for tea but not to sleep in our house? And I say this both ways - let's keep our interests at hand and see how this works out. China and EU do not share borders and yet have worked hard to find mutual ground; same goes for the US and pretty much everyone out there but Iran and North Korea, I guess.

Heated debate and fast triggers, very much like the pencil pushes in Brussels waving their fingers - STFU. Switzerland is an independent country with direct democracy - vox populi, period. It is not like we adopted referendums and direct democracy after we started the bilaterals and somehow this is a new spin on things... EU knew who they were getting in bed with, likewise for the Swiss.

Now, the strain on infrastructure and social security systems is evident, just like the border canton petty crime: this vote was a revolt of the people much more against (or should I say directed to) Bern and the federal government, than anyone/anything else. Clearly the federal government has to assist the cantonal governments in addressing these issues and working on solutions stat.

As to the EU/CH mill - Switzerland was a prosperous country long before the EU and despite duties and taxes. Chances are, we will adapt to whatever comes next. Same goes for the EU transport companies that will have to find other ways for their north/south travel routes. The Open Skies agreement is not part of this political debacle, so flying in/out of CH should be fine contrary to a previous poster's worries.

For future referendums and keeping the village idiots in check, the government in Bern should be far more proactive and producing real alternatives and counter-initiatives, communicating clearly and better with the citizens. Truth is, this 0,3% that creates so much buzz only happened as 1) nobody thought this would pass, so they voted YES just to show they dislike the traffic jams morning/evening and 2) the government along with the rest of the political spectrum were sitting on their hands, scoffing at UDC, nodding "this shall not pass". Wakey-wakey, lazy cats - now you have a mess to sort out AND step up for the next one because if history tells us anything, UDC are prolific in their initiatives and more shall come...
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  #2582  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:17
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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One thing has to be handed to UDC: their timing was impeccable and can only be covered with this

I mean - how in the world do you hit this out of the park when there are EU parliament elections coming, the extreme right/left throughout Europe are revving up and most are thinking about reshaping their relationship with the EU (UK, for one)... Scotland is considering their own letterhead and France/Germany/Denmark/Italy are suffering immigration like never before? Timing was da bomb.

Now, back to the topic at hand: I'm unclear why there is no distinction between the free crossing of borders and that of actual establishment/relocation. Sure, you're welcome for tea but not to sleep in our house? And I say this both ways - let's keep our interests at hand and see how this works out. China and EU do not share borders and yet have worked hard to find mutual ground; same goes for the US and pretty much everyone out there but Iran and North Korea, I guess.

Heated debate and fast triggers, very much like the pencil pushes in Brussels waving their fingers - STFU. Switzerland is an independent country with direct democracy - vox populi, period. It is not like we adopted referendums and direct democracy after we started the bilaterals and somehow this is a new spin on things... EU knew who they were getting in bed with, likewise for the Swiss.

Now, the strain on infrastructure and social security systems is evident, just like the border canton petty crime: this vote was a revolt of the people much more against (or should I say directed to) Bern and the federal government, than anyone/anything else. Clearly the federal government has to assist the cantonal governments in addressing these issues and working on solutions stat.

As to the EU/CH mill - Switzerland was a prosperous country long before the EU and despite duties and taxes. Chances are, we will adapt to whatever comes next. Same goes for the EU transport companies that will have to find other ways for their north/south travel routes. The Open Skies agreement is not part of this political debacle, so flying in/out of CH should be fine contrary to a previous poster's worries.

For future referendums and keeping the village idiots in check, the government in Bern should be far more proactive and producing real alternatives and counter-initiatives, communicating clearly and better with the citizens. Truth is, this 0,3% that creates so much buzz only happened as 1) nobody thought this would pass, so they voted YES just to show they dislike the traffic jams morning/evening and 2) the government along with the rest of the political spectrum were sitting on their hands, scoffing at UDC, nodding "this shall not pass". Wakey-wakey, lazy cats - now you have a mess to sort out AND step up for the next one because if history tells us anything, UDC are prolific in their initiatives and more shall come...
About "Now, the strain on infrastructure and social security systems is evident, just like the border canton petty crime: this vote was a revolt of the people ...."

I agree but sadly for the people who voted there was nothing in this initiative to address any of these points, I mean,
  • Nothing about reducing the number of foreigners here (indeed both Tony Brunner & Blocher recently said this is not planned)
  • No definite target for reducing the number of new immigrants in future
  • No mention of improving border security/policing

When people eventually realise this then who will get the blame? The SVP, Bern, the EU or?
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  #2583  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "Now, the strain on infrastructure and social security systems is evident, just like the border canton petty crime: this vote was a revolt of the people ...."



I agree but sadly for the people who voted there was nothing in this initiative to address any of these points, I mean,
  • Nothing about reducing the number of foreigners here (indeed both Tony Brunner & Blocher recently said this is not planned)
  • No definite target for reducing the number of new immigrants in future
  • No mention of improving border security/policing
When people eventually realise this then who will get the blame? The SVP, Bern, the EU or?
The SVP? Hell no. They're brilliant when it comes to shifting blame. They base their propaganda on it.

Bern? Doubtful. Bern will say 'we did what you asked'

The EU? Most likely. Those who believe the above issues are caused by immigration tend to be the ones who believe the EU is the equivelent of Mordor, and that Barroso is Sauron himself.

But at the basic level?
The immigrants that do come, will still get blamed for it.
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  #2584  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "Thus, the beneficiaries you mention are not affected" - the names of the new beneficiaries are not yet formally announced although there were leaks.
Will be interesting to see if the list of new beneficiaries when announced is the same as currently expected.

I was not talking about "restriction in budget"; I was talking about how will the budget be applied.
But surely they will be known to the leaders of the HBP?

In any case, even if they are Swiss, im not sure the EU can or will bother to do anything. They've already confirmed that the HBP is unaffected, as its funding came out of Framework 7.
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  #2585  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Who cares about repercussions from the EU? The EU is going tits up anyway.

Wishful thinking! I don't endorse everything the EU does, there are a lot of baffling decisions, but also hell of a lot of good ones. I lost enough ancestors in the last World Wars to appreciate one thing:

My generation and that of my parents are the only ones in Continental Europe not to have known a general conflict, and guess what, the EU (and all its prior treaties) have a lot to do with it. That's good enough for me, especially in times of extremist views.
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  #2586  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

This immigrants initiative looked like being rejected up until 2 weeks before the vote.

Does anyone else believe the countryside voted 'Yes' in revenge for the cities voting 'Yes' to not allowing the second homes in the countryside? They saw the 'Yes' result as cities interfering in their domain.

http://www.zweitwohnungsinitiative.ch/
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  #2587  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:50
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I mean - how in the world do you hit this out of the park when there are EU parliament elections coming, the extreme right/left throughout Europe are revving up and most are thinking about reshaping their relationship with the EU (UK, for one)... Scotland is considering their own letterhead and France/Germany/Denmark/Italy are suffering immigration like never before? Timing was da bomb.
I can guarantee you one thing: The SVP could not care less about EU elections, let alone some vote in countries as far away as Scotland. The whole point about their agenda is that they only care about Switzerland. To some extend is that the only thing positive I can say about them as I think politicians should care about their electorate...

But just some facts on your claims for the fun of it: Germany is not "suffering immigration" (is it a disease?), Germany has a completely different problem - the society is aging and many young educated Germans emigrate... for example to Switzerland. As a result is the population DECLINING and educated immigrants are urgently needed. Latest research shows that the immigrants coming to Germany (according to the populists for the social welfare or at max some low paid job...)... are on average better educated than Germans.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaf...sche-1.1679780

It gets even better - other research shows that the numbers right winged populists typically use (higher unemployedment among foreign population, higher number of social welfare cases...) are caused mostly by second generation immigrants, not the new arrivals.

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/untern...smus-migration

For those who cannot read German - the article points out that Germany does not have an immigration problem with the current high numbers - on the contrary, it warns that one day the wave of high educated souther Europeans might stop... and then Germany has a problem.
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  #2588  
Old 20.02.2014, 16:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I can guarantee you one thing: The SVP could not care less about EU elections, let alone some vote in countries as far away as Scotland. The whole point about their agenda is that they only care about Switzerland. To some extend is that the only thing positive I can say about them as I think politicians should care about their electorate...

But just some facts on your claims for the fun of it: Germany is not "suffering immigration" (is it a disease?), Germany has a completely different problem - the society is aging and many young educated Germans emigrate... for example to Switzerland. As a result is the population DECLINING and educated immigrants are urgently needed. Latest research shows that the immigrants coming to Germany (according to the populists for the social welfare or at max some low paid job...)... are on average better educated than Germans.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaf...sche-1.1679780

It gets even better - other research shows that the numbers right winged populists typically use (higher unemployedment among foreign population, higher number of social welfare cases...) are caused mostly by second generation immigrants, not the new arrivals.

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/untern...smus-migration

For those who cannot read German - the article points out that Germany does not have an immigration problem with the current high numbers - on the contrary, it warns that one day the wave of high educated souther Europeans might stop... and then Germany has a problem.
Good post, and very relevant.

I would think this is the case in most countries.

I mean, what would happen if educated immigrants stopped coming to Switzerland?
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  #2589  
Old 20.02.2014, 17:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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For those who cannot read German - the article points out that Germany does not have an immigration problem with the current high numbers - on the contrary, it warns that one day the wave of high educated souther Europeans might stop... and then Germany has a problem.
What was also mentioned in this interview (saw same) was that when the economies in lazy, smelly southern Europe recover, the influx of new blood into Germany will stop. That is worrying to the Germans for the reasons mentioned in the original post.
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Old 20.02.2014, 17:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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What was also mentioned in this interview (saw same) was that when the economies in lazy, smelly southern Europe recover, the influx of new blood into Germany will stop. That is worrying to the Germans for the reasons mentioned in the original post.
Perhaps that explains Angela Merkels muted response?

After all, if the talent pull in Switzerland is weakened, its possible (and quite likely) more of the talent will end up in Germany (being the next most attractive country for many skilled immigrants).

Angela's a mastermind, playing the whole of Europe!

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Old 20.02.2014, 19:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Wishful thinking! I don't endorse everything the EU does, there are a lot of baffling decisions, but also hell of a lot of good ones. I lost enough ancestors in the last World Wars to appreciate one thing:

My generation and that of my parents are the only ones in Continental Europe not to have known a general conflict, and guess what, the EU (and all its prior treaties) have a lot to do with it. That's good enough for me, especially in times of extremist views.
I would have thought it had to do with the cold war. Would have been kind of stupid of Germany to annex a part of France, when the Europe and Germany is split up in two and the Russians are standing on the other side of the border. Maybe the lasting peace had more to do with the stationing of American troops?

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I saw that as a veiled threat, that they would not go full hog immediately, they would give CH a chance to ameliorate the situation.
It can be argued if Switzerland is that important to the EU, but it for sure is to Germany. It needs a lot of fantasy to find something else in Merkels statement than honest concern.
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Old 20.02.2014, 19:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I should look for figures on this, but I think that Germany has all the expertise it needs. Their research programs are doing quite well, although I guess more can't do any harm. we have lots of Germans working in research here in the US. I don't see enough Swiss- maybe there are more in finance? Hopefully the skin gun (a recent German invention) can be used for the Ukrainian protesters. - but warning it contains nasty burn pictures:


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Old 20.02.2014, 19:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Perhaps that explains Angela Merkels muted response?
For those not following German politics: Merkel is famous for doing not very much. Ever. No matter what the problem is, her recipe is usually "why dont we wait for a couple of years and see if the problem solves itself".

Deducting from her non-action that she is some master mind is... not really my point of view.
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Old 20.02.2014, 19:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Perhaps that explains Angela Merkels muted response?

After all, if the talent pull in Switzerland is weakened, its possible (and quite likely) more of the talent will end up in Germany (being the next most attractive country for many skilled immigrants).

Angela's a mastermind, playing the whole of Europe!
I would think you give her more credit than she is due.
Having the charisma of a door handle aside, she is mediocre in my view.
Not a bad chancellor(in), I suppose - compared to the current crop of actors on the European political stage.
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  #2595  
Old 20.02.2014, 19:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Good post, and very relevant.

I would think this is the case in most countries.

I mean, what would happen if educated immigrants stopped coming to Switzerland?
This would be the end of English Forum!
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Old 20.02.2014, 19:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It can be argued if Switzerland is that important to the EU, but it for sure is to Germany. It needs a lot of fantasy to find something else in Merkels statement than honest concern.

I think that the relationship is important to both- it is a shame to lose it.
However, it you think that Germany is fully reliant on Swiss investment think again. Even I, as a novice in these matters knows that you need to look at the size of the economy in Germany in comparison to the Swiss economy. Then figure out who is more reliant on whom.


But that is not to say that the Swiss can do without Germany, of course they can and that is their right, but they will have to be prepared to make sacrifices. For some, those who like me would be content to live a frugal lifestyle on Swiss home-grown products that's fine. But if you seek a more international competitive lifestyle then, no, the Swiss who voted for this will tell you that Switzerland is not for you.


" one third of all Swiss imports originate from Germany. This is more than the imports from Italy, France, the USA and the United Kingdom together.
With direct investments of CHF 54.6 billion at the end of 2011, Switzerland is the seventh largest foreign investor in Germany.
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Old 20.02.2014, 20:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Even Peter Spuhler (ex-SVP and national council member) is reacting:
(sorry only in German)
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...ncen--25346304

I agree with him 100%
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Old 20.02.2014, 21:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Even Peter Spuhler (ex-SVP and national council member) is reacting:
(sorry only in German)
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...ncen--25346304

I agree with him 100%
Of course, Spuhler talks reality.
Like a number of senior SVP people he has a big business; 40% of his work force are foreigners and he is very dependent on export business at the level of multi billions.

Currently it looks like the SVP shot themselves in the foot unless the Bundesrat can pull off a good deal with the EU which currently looks increasingly unlikely. To quote Widmer-Schlumpf from the same article; Switzerland have no more trumps in their hand.
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Old 20.02.2014, 21:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I would have thought it had to do with the cold war. Would have been kind of stupid of Germany to annex a part of France, when the Europe and Germany is split up in two and the Russians are standing on the other side of the border. Maybe the lasting peace had more to do with the stationing of American troops?


It can be argued if Switzerland is that important to the EU, but it for sure is to Germany. It needs a lot of fantasy to find something else in Merkels statement than honest concern.
About "Maybe the lasting peace had more to do with the stationing of American troops? " sounds like an invitation to discuss Yugoslavia but I shall resist
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Old 20.02.2014, 23:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Even Peter Spuhler (ex-SVP and national council member) is reacting:
(sorry only in German)
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...ncen--25346304

I agree with him 100%

The SVP industrialist shot hoping to engage the SchweizerVolk romantic pastoral rosy-tinted voters blew up in their faces.



I bet they never expected it to pass, that they could pretend to be loyal to 'Conservative Swiss Values' with no fallout for them personally. they got caught in their own web. This is soooo funny!


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