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  #2701  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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German expats are hardly a minority. It seems they are the second largest group of foreigners here :
From here.
Yeah, but AFAIK the migration of Germans to Switzerland has been declining for the last couple of years.

Also, those resentments are for all Germans alike? or rather for Swabian expelled by their fellow countrymen?
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  #2702  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Land belongs to people that occupies it, and these belong to some elite, who at best might be intellectual. And patriotism is loyalty to real estate

Plus or minus some variations of the borders, this land has belonged to a same people for 700 + years and is one of the world's oldest democracies. That is to be respected.


The elite are part of the people, but not all of the people.


I find it very strange to read comments such as "the vote should be reserved for intellectuals" (paraphrasing a sentiment from pages back) or "direct democracy should be eliminated" (paraphrasing Odile) etc.


No.. a people voted and made a statement.
That's the beauty and the downfall of direct democracy.
Direct democracy is the wonderful right to have a voice.


Whether the results of that statement reflects your personal opinions, foreign or not, is of no avail.


I would have voted against had I voted that day, nevertheless I can also understand the feeling that carried the vote, and I don't believe that it was a vote "against foreigners", it was a statement against hardship and precarity and request for change.
Difficulty gave way to emotion and it over-ruled every other appeal.
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  #2703  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It is possible to be both. Don't most Swiss, claim to be culturally, socially, intellectually, physically and racially elite and 'Native'? Most never hesitate to play the Swiss card or remind you why there is + sign on the Swiss flag. Like you remind Faltrad, it takes a combination of all four not just the emotional. But thinking you are superior as a Swiss and actually being superior are different things. A lot of foreigners in Switzerland are sold the Swiss is better line, the repercussions of this vote may provide a rude awakening to the "natives"


As a Swiss mix I let the side down a bit I'll claim the four out of the five, I don't claim being racially elite. We do have a sixth sense- the last - very important- a sense of entitlement. Like me playing the Swiss card in this discussion. I'll play it- because I can.


Are those who have lived in Switzerland for generations, but never took citizenship non-Native? I guess not as they don't get to vote. Who exactly are the natives, how do we identify them? I find the word native to have emotional overtones. Native is a strange word and can have different connotations and emotional responses- Native American, Swiss natives, African natives. My parents while in the colonies, used to discuss the "natives".


If you were to run through photos of all the Swiss and then run through photos of all British, you will find that the Swiss are overwhelmingly white in comparison. Any claims of multiculturalism fly out of the window.


Compare the ethnic mix in typical US or even European adverts, to typical Swiss adverts. It's quite shocking ethnocentrically-speaking.
I think that dirty money laundering going on here have spoilt average Herren und Frauen and they learnt to live like gods overtime
Unless of course I watched too much of the "Wolf of the Wall Street"
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  #2704  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No, she means that they will leave the US after retirement, and if US citizens will pay much higher taxes due to the US taxing non-resident citizens.

Tom
T
hey don't have to leave, they just renew US Visas, but keep the tax base in CH. The only problem is with buying property in the US. you can buy it but you have fewer protections and could 'lose' the property.
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  #2705  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...
Frankly, the entire vote was about deep rooted resentments towards Germans - which nobody officially said, of course.

While Italian expats constitute the biggest group of foreigners in Switzerland, you hardly ever hear anyone complain about them while the German minority is considered to be a major threat. Not only in terms of employment but also in terms of cultural dominance. The Swiss have always feared the notion of being overrun by the Germans. Of course, the behavior some of the new immigrants from the "Grosse Kanton" display here isn't exactly compatible with the guarded Swiss way of doing things. Many Germans are considered to be freeloaders.
Cannot people in this country finally decide what truly bothers them Yesterday it was Germans, today Italians, tomorrow ex-Yugoslavians or Eastern Europeans. Next week they will blame Föhn for snow melted in the mountains. Miracles will never cease?
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Old 23.02.2014, 12:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Cannot people in this country finally decide what truly bothers them Yesterday it was Germans, today Italians, tomorrow ex-Yugoslavians or Eastern Europeans. Next week they will blame Föhn for snow melted in the mountains. Miracles will never cease?
The Swiss aren't a collective. Different stuff will irritate different Swiss depending on location, circumstances, lifestyle, which way the wind is blowing, the price of cheese, etc.

You can't expect everyone to be annoyed about the same stuff..
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  #2707  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I find it very strange to read comments such as "the vote should be reserved for intellectuals" (paraphrasing a sentiment from pages back) or "direct democracy should be eliminated" (paraphrasing Odile) etc.

I would have voted against had I voted that day, nevertheless I can also understand the feeling that carried the vote, and I don't believe that it was a vote "against foreigners", it was a statement against hardship and precarity and request for change.
I repeat what I stated in another post yesterday.

I don't think the problem is direct democracy per se but common people not even trying to pick up and read the initiative and discuss only this and not other real problems that are not even solved by the outcome.

In such an old democracy I would have expected people to be informed before casting a vote — it's not much, reading one page. But hey, that's just me.

I'd believe it was a vote against the Bundesrat for not solving some problems (related or not with migration) that had very real international consequences.
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  #2708  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Germans speak German better than the Swiss. Italians speak better Italian and French speak better French. Was the vote a fear of being overrun by intellectuals? A "your not the boss of me"? For all the bravado, intellectual competition seems to be feared by some in Switzerland.
Switzerland has many unique qualities and has shown historically that it can compete successfully, it just can't be done with SVP mindset restrictions, it takes Swiss flexibility and ingenuity.


I am optimistic that Swiss ingenuity will work this out, it just might take three years and a big drop in revenue.
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  #2709  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I repeat what I stated in another post yesterday.

I don't think the problem is direct democracy per se but common people not even trying to pick up and read the initiative and discuss only this and not other real problems that are not even solved by the outcome.

In such an old democracy I would have expected people to be informed before casting a vote — it's not much, reading one page. But hey, that's just me.

I'd believe it was a vote against the Bundesrat for not solving some problems (related or not with migration) that had very real international consequences.

Sorry t3m, but no-one will say anything against Sky she's just such a nice person, even I'll bow out of that one!
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  #2710  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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A land does not belong to an intellectual elite, it belongs to a native people.
You love Aristotle more than you think you do.
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  #2711  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I don't think the problem is direct democracy per se but common people not even trying to pick up and read the initiative.
What exactly gives you the idea that they didn't read it?

Tom
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  #2712  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Sorry t3m, but no-one will say anything against Sky she's just such a nice person, even I'll bow out of that one!
Have I, actually? So you think it's better to refrain yourself from sharing a point of view, only because Sky (who I don't know AFK) is nice?

But oh well I think almost everything has been said in this thread, we even reached Godwin more than once
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  #2713  
Old 23.02.2014, 12:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What exactly gives you the idea that they didn't read it?
It's not some stats from the government, certainly.

It's all kinds of inputs from people around you, (oh!) the media, party propaganda, etc.

What else did / could you expect?

Last edited by t3m; 23.02.2014 at 13:51. Reason: forgot last sentence
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  #2714  
Old 23.02.2014, 13:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Sorry t3m, but no-one will say anything against Sky she's just such a nice person, even I'll bow out of that one!
Hoppy, thank you for your lovely kind words.
Please forgive me but I'll refuse positive or negative emotion, for should I use them, the day I'll disappoint you for being very imperfect, I'll be held accountable for the colors I've been painted with.
Please, I very much enjoy debating with you with arguments based on the validity (or not) of our words while maintaining indifference as people. Thus we may truly debate evenly and retain freedom of speech.
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Old 23.02.2014, 14:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The real question here is not that the people voted the way they did, but what to do now for progress.

Last edited by Sky; 23.02.2014 at 21:45. Reason: Invalid digression
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Old 23.02.2014, 14:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It's not some stats from the government, certainly.

It's all kinds of inputs from people around you, (oh!) the media, party propaganda, etc.

What else did / could you expect?
Actually, I would say that the childish threats from the EU bully had the greatest effect on the YES vote.

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 14:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The real question here is not that the people voted the way they did, but what to do now for progress.
The Bundesrat is between a rock and a hard place, probably knowing what the vote signaled and trying to put up with the consequences of it.
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Old 23.02.2014, 15:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think the fact that so many people in the Deutschschweiz dislike Germans is what swung this vote. This issue needs to be addressed before any new vote is held.
Basel-Stadt (BS), Zug (ZG), Zürich (ZH) all voted no?
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  #2719  
Old 23.02.2014, 17:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Actually, I would say that the childish threats from the EU bully had the greatest effect on the YES vote.

Tom

It must be the 20000 time that this is explained.

Free Circulation is a fundamental right of the EU. ===> linked to research and business and not separable from this two. ===> one state decides to cancel Free Circulation ===> the rest follows.

It is not a threat, the results of such a vote are written in a contract stipulated quite some time ago.

To my understanding, your country wants the advantages with any of the disadvantages and without respecting the fundamental rights of EU citizens.

You know, Barroso is not someone that can go on and declare something on his own for the whole EU. His words have always been well considered.
The fact that he can so openly talk about the consequences of such a vote is only because they have been known for a very long time.

It is the same as if one wants to buy a house, he stipulates a mortgage, then he does not pay and he starts complaining about the bank bullying him and taking his house.

Take your responsibilities at the very least. You want to have control on immigration: FINE. Accept everything else that comes with that, and no one will have anything to say anymore.
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  #2720  
Old 23.02.2014, 17:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'm happy to look my Glarner neighbours in the eye. I can't see any reason why I shouldn't, even if 100% had voted for the initiative.

Looking them in the eye is lovely- but it would be interesting to actually TALK to them to try and understand why the yes was so dominant- despite so few frontaliers and immigrants in the area- perhaps. Have you discussed this with any of them?

BTW, it is not only loony lefty Guardian readers, as you say, who voted NO- but most other parties but the SVP/UDC, including the right of centre FDP/PLR.

Last edited by Odile; 23.02.2014 at 17:34.
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