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  #2721  
Old 23.02.2014, 17:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

If you'd bothered to read my earlier post, it was based on fact...

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The daughter of one neighbour we are friendly with was voting for the initiative because she hates Eastern Europeans (her ex husband is from the Balkan area) . Hadn't bothered to read any of the material or listen to any of the debates.
The ex husband was abusive and it all ended up in a mess so, yes, she voted on the fact that foreigners in her sphere were nut-jobs.

Of course you can only assume that others base their opinions on such incidents but it must be a fairly safe assumption seeing as this is what the SVP seems to heavily base its campaigns on - magnifying the negative experiences of the few to make it seem like it will become commonplace if they don't step in with their initiatives.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 23.02.2014 at 18:18. Reason: Clarification
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Old 23.02.2014, 18:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Take your responsibilities at the very least. You want to have control on immigration: FINE. Accept everything else that comes with that, and no one will have anything to say anymore.
Umm, we do, in fact we are more than happy to see the end of the bi-laterals!

We discussed this in depth last night, and that was our conclusion.

And by we, I mean a mix of Swiss of varying degree and origin.

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 18:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Actually, I would say that the childish threats from the EU bully had the greatest effect on the YES vote.
To you groaners: do you actually believe that the threats of the EU didn't in fact increase the YES vote?

Only bullies make threats.

The EU made threats, hence is a bully.

We responded.

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 18:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Only bullies make threats.

The EU made threats, hence is a bully.
To you, the initiative is a threat neither to honnestly working foreigners nor to the prosperity of Swiss society? Fair enough, but some people do think it, so the SVP is a bully to them. My comment on it : fair enough too.
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Old 23.02.2014, 18:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I am old enough to remember when it was almost impossible for someone from CH to go and work in the EU- or take part in Erasmus or international research programmes, etc. I was only able to go and work in London in 1970 because I knew the right people, who arranged the contract for me- I was lucky. At the time, if you didn't have the right contacts, the only option was Au Pair work. We want young Swiss who can speak languages and have foreign work experience and an open mind, don't we- like your daughter who is now in th USA (and was able to do so due to her dual nationality). Do we want to limit the opportunity to travel and work or study/research abroad to those with dual or multiple nationality? Not me, that is for sure.

Last edited by Odile; 23.02.2014 at 21:20.
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Old 23.02.2014, 18:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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To you, the initiative is a threat neither to honnestly working foreigners nor to the prosperity of Swiss society? Fair enough, but some people do think it, so the SVP is a bully to them. My comment on it : fair enough too.
OK, however, SVP is a minor player in Ticino (5.3%).

SVP

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 19:01
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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like your daughter who is now in th USA (and was able to do so due to her dual triple nationality).
FTFY.

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 19:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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common people not even trying to pick up and read the initiative and discuss only this and not other real problems that are not even solved by the outcome
So what was in the initiative that "common people" neglected to read, exactly?

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 19:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Umm, we do, in fact we are more than happy to see the end of the bi-laterals!

We discussed this in depth last night, and that was our conclusion.

And by we, I mean a mix of Swiss of varying degree and origin.

Tom
Switzerland: we want bilaterals !! No we don't. No actually, we do, but not quite... herrrmm... give me three years, but do not bully me in the meanwhile, it would not be fair, I have multiple personality issues to deal with....!!!!

For what it concerns the EU elections, I think there are going to be an abundant new 750.000 votes going for parties that are on the side of the EU.
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:04
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So what was in the initiative that "common people" neglected to read, exactly?
Enough has been said in this thread in this regard.

Just one example of a recent stat: 74% want the bilaterals, 50% don't want the PFZ that comes with them.

A better initiative would have been 'we want to renegotiate the PFZ and the bilaterals'.
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Again I am genuinely interested in the differences between Vaud and Ticino?

What are the kind of jobs the Italians 'take' in Ticino, that locals would like to take for themselves? I would really like to understand. Don't want to ask for personal info, but what sort of job do your daughters do, Tom- which they could not secure in Ticino due to Italians? Here in Neuchâtel with so many frontaliers- we do have a 'problem' with jobs in the watch-making and precision engineering industry going to frontaliers at low salary rates (which are excellent for living in France, but not this side of the border. Lots of new estates of very posh houses and lots of posh cars just over the border). But we could close the hospitals and OAP homes, cafés and restaurants-and hôtels, if we lost frontaliers workers. And at the same time, the unemployed youngsters are often not properly qualified to take the watch-making or engineeering jobs, and not prepared to take the others. Complex, yes.

Last edited by Odile; 23.02.2014 at 20:20.
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  #2732  
Old 23.02.2014, 20:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

My daughters haven't had problems finding jobs, but many of their friends have.

Regardless of profession.

They see it, and vote accordingly.

Tom
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...A better initiative would have been 'we want to renegotiate the PFZ and the bilaterals'.
With a name like that you'd not likely get enough signatures to have it put to a vote. (Just saying.)
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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My daughters haven't had problems finding jobs, but many of their friends have.

Regardless of profession.

They see it, and vote accordingly.

Tom
Thanks- so why do you think your daughters have not had a problem finding work, but many of their friends did
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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With a name like that you'd not likely get enough signatures to have it put to a vote. (Just saying.)
AFAIK it is legally the same thing. Why would the SVP not explicitly warn the voters of the consequences?
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Old 23.02.2014, 20:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...Only bullies make threats.
and still people "bought" the SVP (the no1 when it comes to threats) crap?
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  #2737  
Old 23.02.2014, 20:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Switzerland: we want bilaterals !! No we don't. No actually, we do, but not quite... herrrmm... give me three years, but do not bully me in the meanwhile, it would not be fair, I have multiple personality issues to deal with....!!!!

For what it concerns the EU elections, I think there are going to be an abundant new 750.000 votes going for parties that are on the side of the EU.
Well this is not surprising is it? The vote was about 50/50- so makes sense that some want the bilaterals, and voted NO, and some do not value them or see them as a threat, and voted YES. But it was close, VERY close- so yes, almost half the population is disappointed in the outcome. Not difficult to understand, is it?

Tom, what threats were made??? Warnings of real consequences based on facts are not threats, are they? I call it information. The SVP/UDC repeatedly give warnings of possible and unfounded consequences, often based on false information - I suppose they could be called 'threats'.

Last edited by Odile; 23.02.2014 at 21:05.
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Old 23.02.2014, 21:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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My daughters haven't had problems finding jobs, but many of their friends have.

Regardless of profession.

They see it, and vote accordingly.

Tom
I thought one of your daughters moved to USA for job related reasons?
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Old 23.02.2014, 21:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well this is not surprising is it? The vote was about 50/50- so makes sense that some want the bilaterals, and voted NO, and some do not value them or see them as a thread, and voted YES. But it was close, VERY close- so yes, almost half the population is disappointed in the outcome. Not difficult to understand, is it?
I understand the vote. I also understand the reasons behind it.

I am just making fun of the following sequence of arguments:

We cancel the rights we want with our vote, we cancel the contracts coming with that, but the EU is a bully because it is cancelling the bilaterals, but we do not want the bilaterals anyway, although we do not want any consequence on our quality of life and economy.

The arguments are perfectly contradicting each other.

I am glad that you say that re-negotiating the bilaterals was cleverer than this vote. It actually makes me hope that the situation will be solved with some intelligence.
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  #2740  
Old 23.02.2014, 21:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

A great article in l'Hebdo, written by Johan Rochel, one of my ex school language assistant and lodger in UK (in French, sorry, with links to similar articles in German)

Johan Rochel
Le sort noue joue parfois des tours : j’ai reçu par SMS le résultat final de la votation du 9 février alors que je me trouvais sur un bateau entre Manhattan et Staten Island. A mes côtés, tout le monde se pressait contre les fenêtres pour photographier la célèbre Statue. Le symbole de la liberté et de l’appel aux migrants se tenait là, inébranlable sur son socle, prise sous les assauts de dizaines de touristes avides de ramener un souvenir. Pour sa part, le SMS parlait des quelques 19'000 voix d’écart.
Le choc passé, les réseaux sociaux ont commencé à résonner de mille bruits, les échanges d’emails à tourner à plein régime. Peu après, les assemblées de fond de cafés ont pris le relais. Dix jours après le vote, le résultat porte à la surface une formidable envie de se battre pour une autre Suisse. Partout, l’énergie libérée par ce vote du 9 février est palpable. Il est grand temps de la saisir à pleines mains.
Cette énergie est nourrie par les valeurs d’une Suisse ouverte et dynamique, sûre de ses forces et de ses compétences, considérant l’étranger comme une chance et une opportunité avant d’y voir une menace. C’est la Suisse qui gagne et qu’on fête volontiers avec Stanislas Wawrinka à Melbourne et les Suisses à Sotchi. En plus de nos athlètes d’exception, célébrons une Suisse prospère qui vit de ses talents et de son ouverture au monde. Soyons fiers de nos performances incroyables en tant que société.
Cette énergie se doit d’être spécialement portée par ma génération. Nos chances et opportunités sont touchées de plein fouet par les conséquences de la votation du 9 février. Celles-ci étaient prévisibles et connues : les citoyens qui ont accepté l’initiative ont décidé de ne pas tenir compte de ces problèmes. L’heure n’est pas au règlement de compte : ma génération doit monter au créneau et défendre becs et ongles ses visions pour la Suisse de demain.
Deux symboles forts caractérisent ma génération : Easyjet et Erasmus. La génération Easyjet, c’est la génération de l’Europe à portée de voyage. Nous sommes nés avec l’opportunité de passer un week-end à Barcelone, de rendre visite à quelques amis à Berlin et de s’offrir un match de foot à Londres. Le tout en montrant brièvement sa carte d’identité à un douanier somnolent, gardien désœuvré d’un espace de droits et de liberté. Cette Europe-là a construit nos repères internationaux, marquant nos premiers voyages du sceau de la liberté et des plaisirs d’aller à la rencontre du continent. L’Europe n’est plus l’étranger, c’est le temps des loisirs et des découvertes.
A cette frénésie de voyages s’est ajoutée la mobilité estudiantine et professionnelle. Rappelez-vous l’ « Auberge espagnole », véritable cri du cœur de tous les étudiants européens réunis autour d’un frigo rempli à craquer. Notre génération Erasmus a grandi avec la conscience de pouvoir se former et travailler à travers l’Europe. Bien plus qu’un simple coup du hasard, nous avons appris à considérer cette opportunité comme un droit propre ! Ce droit a façonné notre rapport à l’Europe, intégrant le continent et ses opportunités dans nos plans de vie et de carrière.
Dans la campagne pour le 9 février, ma génération n’a pas réussi à suffisamment plaider sa cause. Mais l’énergie ne manque pas pour rattraper le retard. Concentrons cette énergie et unissons les forces positives du pays dans un mouvement pour une Suisse prospère. Réapproprions-nous les définitions des termes « opportunité», « croissance », « souveraineté », « prospérité ». Dans cet effort, remettons au cœur des questions politiques l’idéal de liberté individuelle, le seul capable de garantir à chacun les opportunités de choisir et réaliser la vie qu’il souhaite. Le seul en mesure de poser les bases d’une Suisse entreprenante et prête à conquérir le 21ème siècle.
Forts de cette vision pour la Suisse de demain, partons à la rencontre de tous les Confédérés et proposons leur ces nouvelles alternatives. Portées avec conviction par les forces vives et progressistes du pays, ces visions trouveront preneurs.
En avant !
Johan Rochel

Last edited by Odile; 23.02.2014 at 22:13.
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