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Old 18.01.2014, 16:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I already sent my 'JA' vote in.
In my case it was JA in regard to the railways but NEIN in regard to the other two things. My slogan was Stoppt die Masslosigkeit der SVP bevor es zu spät ist
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Old 18.01.2014, 17:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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As a 'paper' Swiss, I'll tell you my reasons for voting 'ja'.
Step by step now

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Living in Kt. Zug where my husband was born and raised, we are lucky we can still afford our rent. We'd be screwed if our landlord came in and did a total reno, which would jack our rent up at least 500fr or more- meaning would couldnt afford to live here.
Zug is not Switzerland. There ARE places where things got out of control. The mess in Zug would not be as dramatic had not the Canton of Zug, in regard to taxes, for decades systematically undercut the Cantons of Luzern and Zürich and Schaffhausen and Thurgau.

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When I go out shopping, I hear every other language and no German. 12 different languages are spoken in my son's local kindergarten (20 kids are in the class).
Whenever I pay a visit to Zug I hear German everywhere all the time. Sounds as if you suffer from "selective hearing problems"

Here in Glattbrugg, you have up to 20 different nationalities in schoolclasses (between 25 and 28 in accordance with regulations) but the kids all speak German, as Portuguese do not speak Albanian or Turkish etc. That the kids allow being limited to their own ethnic group simply is not true

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My neighbor has a Spanish partner. Good he's intergrated and has a job. Now his brother is here staying with them looking for a job with no language skills other than Spanish and English. This gets me. There are enough Swiss youths (including my neices) looking for jobs which these people are taking because they will work for less money.
> To declare that brother to be a "model" is clearly rubbish, a gross generalisation and rather gross nonsense
> it is an old myth and another generalisation that foreigners get jobs because they accept lower wages
>> reality is that there are NOT enough Swiss youths alive to fill the jobs around. There is no rampant joblessness among young Swiss people, and Swiss youths find jobs if they want. But of course some of them are too noble to work as cashiers in Denner and Spar
>>> ever heard about the gradual change-over from the "baby-boomer generation" born between 1945 and 1965 and the "baby-pill generation" born after 1965 ??


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I know numerous expats that came, had surgeries, expected the healthcare system to pay for those surgeries without paying their fair share into the collective health insurance pot, then leave the country. This makes our health insurance increase each year even though we dont use it.
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You may know many expats who had surgeries here ? Alright, provide percentages of totals. The REAL numbers are minimal, marginal and rather irrelevant. The immigrants who by average are fairly youngish and generally in quite good health heavily contribute to the AHV and to healthcare costs and so help the aging population of CH citizens
--
"We don't use it" ??? nice for you. You apparently never had a serious illness up to now ? ------ visit the Oncology at Uni-Spital and listen around. A majority speak CH dialects.

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Dont get me started on the asylum seekers with their new housing with brand new beds on the taxpayer's cost.
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Now you have landed in territories which in football are named "OFFSITE". As most asylum seekers have to do with beds which are average at best and NOT brandnew, and the "housing" only is brandnew when the usual Asyl-Unterkünfte collapsed and had to be replaced

***********************************************

Conclusion: most of your "arguments" is just hollow SVP rethorics
.... and that the reputation of ZUG as a place full with egoistische Inzüchtler possibly is not as wrong as I presumed
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  #283  
Old 18.01.2014, 19:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Zug is not Switzerland. There ARE places where things got out of control. The mess in Zug would not be as dramatic had not the Canton of Zug, in regard to taxes
If the Zuger want fewer foreigners, the solution is not a new SVP initiative each year, it just a good old fashion tax raise. They can do that without any interference of foreigners, That should make them happy...
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  #284  
Old 18.01.2014, 20:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

There is a facebook group who stand against the SVP proposal; GOMS.


Gesellschaft offene & moderne Schweiz - GOMS


GomS engagiert sich in ausländerpolitischen Abstimmungen für eine offene, moderne und liberale Schweiz.
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Old 18.01.2014, 20:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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As a 'paper' Swiss, I'll tell you my reasons for voting 'ja'.

Living in Kt. Zug where my husband was born and raised, we are lucky we can still afford our rent. We'd be screwed if our landlord came in and did a total reno, which would jack our rent up at least 500fr or more- meaning would couldnt afford to live here.

When I go out shopping, I hear every other language and no German. 12 different languages are spoken in my son's local kindergarten (20 kids are in the class).

My neighbor has a Spanish partner. Good he's intergrated and has a job. Now his brother is here staying with them looking for a job with no language skills other than Spanish and English. This gets me. There are enough Swiss youths (including my neices) looking for jobs which these people are taking because they will work for less money.

I know numerous expats that came, had surgeries, expected the healthcare system to pay for those surgeries without paying their fair share into the collective health insurance pot, then leave the country. This makes our health insurance increase each year even though we dont use it.

Dont get me started on the asylum seekers with their new housing with brand new beds on the taxpayer's cost.
looking quickly at this nifty chart prepared by the nice folks at Masseinwanderungstoppen.ch, it actually looks like the problem is too many naturalized Swiss rather than true "foreigners", especially on a percentage basis. aber bisch scho drin, oder?





I understand the folks who want Switzerland to be able to adopt its own immigration policies, and who want those policies to put greater emphasis on ensuring sustainability for the citizens of the country. Switzerland doesn't have a responsibility to make its resources and affluence available to complete strangers any more than any other country. in fact, having read the proposed language of the initiative, I would without question vote in favor of it were I a Swiss rather than American voter. but the examples you've offered above are candidly inane, myopic and cliche, and do a great disservice to the Swiss voters who actually understand what they are voting for and why.
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  #286  
Old 18.01.2014, 21:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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looking quickly at this nifty chart prepared by the nice folks at Masseinwanderungstoppen.ch, it actually looks like the problem is too many naturalized Swiss rather than true "foreigners", especially on a percentage basis. aber bisch scho drin, oder?





I understand the folks who want Switzerland to be able to adopt its own immigration policies, and who want those policies to put greater emphasis on ensuring sustainability for the citizens of the country. Switzerland doesn't have a responsibility to make its resources and affluence available to complete strangers any more than any other country. in fact, having read the proposed language of the initiative, I would without question vote in favor of it were I a Swiss rather than American voter. but the examples you've offered above are candidly inane, myopic and cliche, and do a great disservice to the Swiss voters who actually understand what they are voting for and why.

Actually looking at this chart it seems the problem rests with the Gebürtiger Schweizer who have lost their urge/capability to reproduce; maybe the Govt. should put some hormones in the tap water instead of Fluorine.


Comical when the graph is illustrated with Swiss farmers who would put down any of their animals who failed to reproduce adequately


Actually they are all male farmers which maybe talks to the reproduction problem and also gives an insight into real SVP thinking about half the voters in this country?
Now if the farmers were out in the fields with a few good looking girls instead........
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  #287  
Old 18.01.2014, 22:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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My question in all of this. If the initiative passes, and this proceeds, what will happen to the bilateral agreements with the EU - especially with respect to imports. Won't things imported into Switzerland from the EU become that much more expensive?
1.3 Guillotine-Klausel p 6
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Old 18.01.2014, 23:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

Hey you C-permit holder or naturalised Swiss or secondo for that matter, you're all Ausländer for the SVP. Get that straight.

And they'll play with your ignorance as much as they do with the Mass, that same Mass that'll be voting any other party, were its socioeconomic situation less secure.
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  #289  
Old 18.01.2014, 23:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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  1. Nobody knows what will happen to the bilateral agreements. AFAIK all 28 member states would have to agree to cancel or change the bilateral agreements.
  2. The free trade agreement between Switzerland and the EU (probably the most important agreement between these two entities) dates from 1972 and is not part of the bilaterals
  3. Influence on Swiss prices is therefore unlikely.

As others have posted; there is a guillotine clause - not sure if they need to ask all 28 states or if it is automatically applied?
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Old 18.01.2014, 23:49
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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As others have posted; there is a guillotine clause - not sure if they need to ask all 28 states or if it is automatically applied?
Source https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...008-02-14.html

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Bei einer allfälligen Ablehnung der Weiterführung des FZA käme jedoch die sogenannte "Guillotine-Klausel" zur Anwendung, was bedeuten würde, dass die übrigen sechs Abkommen der Bilateralen I innert sechs Monaten ebenfalls und automatisch hinfällig würden.
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Old 19.01.2014, 11:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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You mentioned page 89. Go back there, you are embarrassing yourself.
No, they don't focus on percentage of each population group, I haven't seen the stats for other groups belonging to the non-EU countries. They focus only on EU population groups.
You are deliberately intellectualy dishonest or you lack the skills to understand a basic bar chart (Graphique 4.10 page 89) or you actually don't understand a word of french ( I assume it's a combination of all previous points).

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You talk about the cost of social welfare and then the absolute number of each group becomes irrelevant?
I gave numbers in absolute and relative (by comparing it to the federal budget; read again before commenting).


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Again, nothing about asylum seekers, and in fact, the conclusion is in favour of EU migrants.
Yes, there are differences among EU-countries, but none of any is doing worse than the average. What is your point again?
My point is clear and if you read carefelly for once my post you'll see that I don't give any pro or con argument here. I am just listing some numbers and facts to have a constructive discussion. Whether you like facts or not does not change the situation. Please take example on Wollishofener.

Actually in another thread you'll read that I do defend immigration as value add given that I am also from that background.

Unfortunately your unstructured sentences with pointers to irrelevant Swissinfo articles are just in line with your usual useless contributions in the discussion and forum: a meaningless sentence ending with an emoticon or an irrelvant question or a "me too". Since you are not apt to have an objective and structured thought process I avoid to read your "arguments". I rest my case.
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Old 19.01.2014, 12:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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You are deliberately intellectualy dishonest .
Oh, really. The irony....

As for the rest of your rant...my, I am devastated.

Last edited by greenmount; 19.01.2014 at 12:46.
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Old 19.01.2014, 13:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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You are deliberately intellectualy dishonest or you lack the skills to understand a basic bar chart (Graphique 4.10 page 89) or you actually don't understand a word of french ( I assume it's a combination of all previous points).


I gave numbers in absolute and relative (by comparing it to the federal budget; read again before commenting).




My point is clear and if you read carefelly for once my post you'll see that I don't give any pro or con argument here. I am just listing some numbers and facts to have a constructive discussion. Whether you like facts or not does not change the situation. Please take example on Wollishofener.

Actually in another thread you'll read that I do defend immigration as value add given that I am also from that background.

Unfortunately your unstructured sentences with pointers to irrelevant Swissinfo articles are just in line with your usual useless contributions in the discussion and forum: a meaningless sentence ending with an emoticon or an irrelvant question or a "me too". Since you are not apt to have an objective and structured thought process I avoid to read your "arguments". I rest my case.

About "or you actually don't understand a word of french " You can also read the summary in German - probably the whole document is also in German if I could find it!!
http://www.news.admin.ch/message/ind...e&msg-id=49206
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Old 19.01.2014, 13:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "or you actually don't understand a word of french " You can also read the summary in German - probably the whole document is also in German if I could find it!!
http://www.news.admin.ch/message/ind...e&msg-id=49206
It's here for german.
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Old 19.01.2014, 14:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

The relation between immigration and welfare is a misleading one, in that sense that the immigration is presented to be the issue. The real issue is the the welfare state. Politicians take money from taxes and give them to certain people in order to get elected. As a side effect, this attracts social tourism.

The solution is quite obvious, eliminate the social state and no more immigrants coming to get money from the state. Less state, less taxes.

A referendum to eliminate the social state will be welcome. Probably it won't happen until some social states collapse.
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Old 19.01.2014, 14:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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The relation between immigration and welfare is a misleading one, in that sense that the immigration is presented to be the issue. The real issue is the the welfare state. Politicians take money from taxes and give them to certain people in order to get elected. As a side effect, this attracts social tourism.

The solution is quite obvious, eliminate the social state and no more immigrants coming to get money from the state. Less state, less taxes.

A referendum to eliminate the social state will be welcome. Probably it won't happen until some social states collapse.
Any example of state with no immigration and no welfare?
Immigrants go to flourishing economies to get jobs and better life.
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Old 19.01.2014, 14:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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The relation between immigration and welfare is a misleading one, in that sense that the immigration is presented to be the issue. The real issue is the the welfare state. Politicians take money from taxes and give them to certain people in order to get elected. As a side effect, this attracts social tourism.

The solution is quite obvious, eliminate the social state and no more immigrants coming to get money from the state. Less state, less taxes.

A referendum to eliminate the social state will be welcome. Probably it won't happen until some social states collapse.


About "Probably it won't happen until some social states collapse" - Greece already did!


Do you class Switzerland as a "social state"?
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Old 19.01.2014, 14:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Any example of state with no immigration and no welfare?
Immigrants go to flourishing economies to get jobs and better life.
I meant only the part of immigration coming for the welfare. Of course, immigration will continue for the people who can support themselves.

As a side effect, eliminating the social state will produce emigration from Switzerland to the states offering a welfare system.
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Old 19.01.2014, 14:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "Probably it won't happen until some social states collapse" - Greece already did!


Do you class Switzerland as a "social state"?
When a certain percentage of people lives on welfare (other people money redistributed by government), Switzerland must be a social state. Of course, compared to the neighbors, there is a lot less social state.

Greece was the most advanced case, but Greece is a small country. The idea of social state is still accepted and until more states or a big one collapse, nothing will change.
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Old 19.01.2014, 15:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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As a 'paper' Swiss, I'll tell you my reasons for voting 'ja'.

Living in Kt. Zug where my husband was born and raised, we are lucky we can still afford our rent. We'd be screwed if our landlord came in and did a total reno, which would jack our rent up at least 500fr or more- meaning would couldnt afford to live here.

When I go out shopping, I hear every other language and no German. 12 different languages are spoken in my son's local kindergarten (20 kids are in the class).

My neighbor has a Spanish partner. Good he's intergrated and has a job. Now his brother is here staying with them looking for a job with no language skills other than Spanish and English. This gets me. There are enough Swiss youths (including my neices) looking for jobs which these people are taking because they will work for less money.

I know numerous expats that came, had surgeries, expected the healthcare system to pay for those surgeries without paying their fair share into the collective health insurance pot, then leave the country. This makes our health insurance increase each year even though we dont use it.

Dont get me started on the asylum seekers with their new housing with brand new beds on the taxpayer's cost.


About "There are enough Swiss youths (including my neices) looking for jobs which these people are taking because they will work for less money."


Not really correct; according to the statistics the majority of people coming here are highly educated and highly qualified. Or to put another way - sadly you cannot replace a foreign doctor of Chemistry doing research with a Swiss boy straight off the farm - however much one would like to help Swiss youths.
The solution to unemployment is for them to get better qualified and maybe also to move to areas where there are more job opportunities.
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