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  #3061  
Old 11.01.2016, 21:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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But to quote a well known US Auto Union leader; robots are not consumers!


BTW, an article in the Telegraph claims that Blocher paid half the costs of the "Masseneinwanderung Stoppen" campaign out of his own pocket.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-Britain.html


Nice to know how billionaires can influence a whole country into following their aims.
Totally agree that movement of people should be controlled. The thing is Blocher and the other fat cats in SVP are multi millionaires and billionaires and never tell the last guy on the street (in this case on the farm) the economic ramifications. They do the politicking but not the economics.

Switzerland has one of the biggest pension black holes in western Europe which continues to grow. As UBS pointed out, with less young people paying into the kitty and an aging population and add on top of that a dwindling work force by 25% something has to give. This will mean less public spending on the things the Swiss cherish the most i.e. clean streets, affordable transportation running on time . Ultimately I doubt any of them will gladly forego their monthly pension cheque as they believe it's obligatory.
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  #3062  
Old 11.01.2016, 21:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And it would be interesting to debate the pros and cons of Switzerland going it totally alone, without bilateral agreements- and the consequences, good or bad. Are you saying that, if the bilateral agreements go as a compromise is not acceptable, Switzerland will be better off in total isolation? Discuss.
OK, let's agree on that, and discuss the above, instead of going round in circles.
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  #3063  
Old 11.01.2016, 22:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Only the first Bilateral agreements had large support of 67%. So the immigration vote might be just along this trend where voters are less and less in support of current politics towards EU, koste es, was es wolle. Whatever article I read on NZZ or Tages Anzeiger, the comment section below will be full of "too many foreigners" comments.
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  #3064  
Old 11.01.2016, 22:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Switzerland has one of the biggest pension black holes in western Europe which continues to grow. As UBS pointed out, with less young people paying into the kitty and an aging population and add on top of that a dwindling work force by 25% something has to give. This will mean less public spending on the things the Swiss cherish the most i.e. clean streets, affordable transportation running on time . Ultimately I doubt any of them will gladly forego their monthly pension cheque as they believe it's obligatory.
The present system was built on expectations and promises of growth. The parents of the baby boomers could trust that population growth meant there would be more people paying in down the road. They thus essentially built their future on projected growth. The next generation did the same and so on. Whether the growth was through their children or immigration is besides the point here. It was about growing numbers. So the whole system depends on every generation having more contributors paying more in so that the previous lot can be supported. This is essentially a ponzi scheme.

A ponzi scheme always breaks down when a natural limit is reached. In traditional ponzi schemes this is the gullibility of investors running out. In a country it is space and natural resources. If you say that for the present 8 million or whatever Swiss to have a working pension, there will have to be 11 million Swiss down the road, and when they get old there will have to be 14 million and so on, sooner or later that game is going to break down. Maybe you can get rid of the cows and build skyscrapers all over the country but for many people that would be a loss of living quality. There are many people who don't want to pay that price and like Switzerland the way it is, quaint and different and with every region having its own special identity, and lots of green in between.

So the question is, what is the alternative? Can you assure pensions and a working system without massive growth in numbers driving that? It's a courageous question to ask. It's something a lot of people have been talking about since the 1960s at least - if not before - and its a discussion that's ongoing. I don't know if there is a solution but I think its lazy not to at least develop and consider alternatives. If we don't we end up destroying the very thing we are trying to save.
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  #3065  
Old 11.01.2016, 22:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And it would be interesting to debate the pros and cons of Switzerland going it totally alone, without bilateral agreements- and the consequences, good or bad. Are you saying that, if the bilateral agreements go as a compromise is not acceptable, Switzerland will be better off in total isolation? Discuss.
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OK, let's agree on that, and discuss the above, instead of going round in circles.
Careful dear Odile, you're starting to quote and talk to yourself.
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  #3066  
Old 11.01.2016, 22:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The present system was built on expectations and promises of growth. The parents of the baby boomers could trust that population growth meant there would be more people paying in down the road. They thus essentially built their future on projected growth. The next generation did the same and so on. Whether the growth was through their children or immigration is besides the point here. It was about growing numbers. So the whole system depends on every generation having more contributors paying more in so that the previous lot can be supported. This is essentially a ponzi scheme.

A ponzi scheme always breaks down when a natural limit is reached. In traditional ponzi schemes this is the gullibility of investors running out. In a country it is space and natural resources. If you say that for the present 8 million or whatever Swiss to have a working pension, there will have to be 11 million Swiss down the road, and when they get old there will have to be 14 million and so on, sooner or later that game is going to break down. Maybe you can get rid of the cows and build skyscrapers all over the country but for many people that would be a loss of living quality. There are many people who don't want to pay that price and like Switzerland the way it is, quaint and different and with every region having its own special identity, and lots of green in between.

So the question is, what is the alternative? Can you assure pensions and a working system without massive growth in numbers driving that? It's a courageous question to ask. It's something a lot of people have been talking about since the 1960s at least - if not before - and its a discussion that's ongoing. I don't know if there is a solution but I think its lazy not to at least develop and consider alternatives. If we don't we end up destroying the very thing we are trying to save.

No problem, just keep increasing the retirement age until it coincides with the average life expectancy; or maybe higher
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  #3067  
Old 11.01.2016, 23:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Careful dear Odile, you're starting to quote and talk to yourself.
Quite intentionally though
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  #3068  
Old 12.01.2016, 13:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So what is it about other than national sovereignty? Immigration, as control of one's borders, is fundamental to the existence of a country. If this is not what Blocher and the SVP are about, what then?
Define "national sovereignty" considering the fact that even Switzerland's restructuring into todays form needed the Ok of the superpowers at the time.
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Old 12.01.2016, 13:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Define "national sovereignty" considering the fact that even Switzerland's restructuring into todays form needed the Ok of the superpowers at the time.
The standard dictionary definition will do.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...al+sovereignty

You are referring to Napoleon's Act of Mediation? In its basic form, a sovereign country can make decisions for itself without outside meddling. Membership to the EU apparently precludes it, and there is an illusion that the Bilateral does as well. But it is actually just an illusion backed by a threat.
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  #3070  
Old 12.01.2016, 14:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Are you saying that the bilaterals are not threatened here?

And, again, if the bilaterals are canceled due to the insistence of requesting right to control borders- what will be the consequences? Are you saying none? I am fully aware that I am repeating myself btw- but as you are not addressing those issues, I can but repeat.
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  #3071  
Old 12.01.2016, 14:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

If Switzerland were to instate immigration quotas, and the EU were to threaten to cancel the Bilaterals, I don't believe Switzerland will be isolated like North Korea.
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  #3072  
Old 12.01.2016, 14:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Please expand- how exactly would it be 'isolated' then. Could you run a list of possible consequences and exclusions? Thank you.
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  #3073  
Old 12.01.2016, 14:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Like I said, it would NOT be isolated. The EU can bully, as they have been all this time. But we'll still find trade.

In the end, there will be negotiations, if the EU were to remain European. It would be best to time such a gambit along with other fallouts, like a Brexit. Its always better to enter a negotiation with a strong hand.
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Old 12.01.2016, 14:49
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

No, the Wiener Kongress.
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  #3075  
Old 12.01.2016, 14:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Like I said, it would NOT be isolated. The EU can bully, as they have been all this time. But we'll still find trade.

In the end, there will be negotiations, if the EU were to remain European. It would be best to time such a gambit along with other fallouts, like a Brexit. Its always better to enter a negotiation with a strong hand.
Has Switzerland got a strong hand? How, could you please expand on this. (genuine question). Who has the most to lose, Europe or Switzerland- especially in the climate of such a strong CHF- which is making exports so so difficult at the moment, seriously affecting many areas of CH, from watch-making, precision engineering, and of course not forgetting tourism. Could you expand on that too (again genuine question).
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Old 12.01.2016, 14:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

No, Switzerland does not have a strong hand. It's a David going against a Goliath. But it is a smart David. If the EU were to take the "nuclear" option and punish Switzerland for it, Switzerland would certainly hurt, but it will survive, probably with a lot less than what it has now.

Personally, I'm fine with that situation, as the trillions of CHFs that purportedly flow into Switzerland doesn't hit my personal bank account anyway.

I doubt the EU would want to go down that path anyway. The rational thing for them to do is to renegotiate.
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Old 12.01.2016, 15:06
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Like I said, it would NOT be isolated. The EU can bully, as they have been all this time. But we'll still find trade.
When arguments are being made regarding trade and CH's positioning in the global and EU markets, nobody is talking about complete isolation.

Of course CH will not become North Korea. Nobody's expecting that, and nobody's arguing about that.

What is being argued is that trade will become more cumbersome, more bureaucratic, slower, and in the end more expensive. And pushing prices up is the last thing the exporting industries of Switzerland need.


Also the part "these trillions don't hit my bank account" remind me of the Greeks saying they don't care if banks exist or not because they don't have any money in their accounts anyway.

It's not a very valid argument since it treats people as isolated from the overall economy, and is (I think) detrimental to the merit and veracity of the rest of your statements regarding economics.
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Old 12.01.2016, 15:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What is being argued is that trade will become more cumbersome, more bureaucratic, slower, and in the end more expensive. And pushing prices up is the last thing the exporting industries of Switzerland need.
...
It's not a very valid argument since it treats people as isolated from the overall economy, and is (I think) detrimental to the merit and veracity of the rest of your statements regarding economics.
Trade more expensive, but not impossible.

For me, on principle, the EU is not much different than joining a religious cult. Sure, you have access to all the other cult members, but you are to abide by the dictates of the Cult leaders. It's a no-go for me, but I'm sure that is perfectly fine for other people. I don't mind shedding that if it would cost CHF100 now, rather than losing everything you have down the road anyway.
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Old 12.01.2016, 15:27
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I think the situation is very different for bankers, nad possible IT professional at the top of their game, than for people in manufacturing.

As you say 'trade more expensive' but 'how much more expensive' is that? Trade, and tourism, are already massively affected by the strong CHF and many at breaking point. Are you truly not aware of this- or are you being 'naïve'. Principles are are very wonderful- but to say there may not be a very heavy price to pay, is naïve in the extreme- unless you can give me strong facts here.

And as you well know, I am sure- if those manufacturing industries, and tourism, as well as building, etc, are even more affected than they are now due to the strong france- who will pay the heaviest price? (eg the Swiss or all the foreign workers and frontaliers?). Again, genuine questions here. Direct democracy is very hard work- those of us who will be voting will, I sincerely hope, vote not on vague 'principles' and gut feelings but on informed facts. I will not personally vote unless and until I understand the issues. So please, all of you, educate me.
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Old 12.01.2016, 15:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

By the way, who actually decided that there would be NO renegotiation with Switzerland? I assume it was a particular EU bureaucrat who finds that they have Switzerland by the balls. This sums up the EU for me - its controlled by elitist bureaucrat serving up favors for itself rather than the population of Europe. Unless this changes, it really is not worth ceding it more power to the EU. Its headed towards more egregious corruption, and destroying nations along its path.
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