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Old 26.01.2016, 00:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Nowhere does it support your claim that "Schengen is a precursor of FMOP".
In fact it handily lists most of the countries that adopted FMOP before Schengen and the countries that have FMOP without Schengen.

"Freedom of movement and residence for persons in the EU is the cornerstone of Union citizenship, which was established by the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992. Its practical implementation in EU law, however, has not been straightforward. It first involved the gradual phasing-out of internal borders under the Schengen agreements, initially in just a handful of Member States. "


But whatever.
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  #3262  
Old 26.01.2016, 07:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"Freedom of movement and residence for persons in the EU is the cornerstone of Union citizenship, which was established by the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992. Its practical implementation in EU law, however, has not been straightforward. It first involved the gradual phasing-out of internal borders under the Schengen agreements, initially in just a handful of Member States. "


But whatever.

What they are telling you:

Schengen: no control at the borders.

FMOP: you shall pass! and have the right to do so and establish yourself Waar Je wilt !
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  #3263  
Old 26.01.2016, 09:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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All hail the politicians? Who vested them with their power?
Indeed.

Now, coming to strategy.

As an EU voter, I think that a good strategy from the EU would be:

1. Let bilaterals fall.
2. Impose visas and taxes to businesses that export to the EU.
3. Never renegotiate any "bilaterals" ever again. They have already proven to be absolutely useless due to the very little commitment that Switzerland has about it.
4. If asked, put rather harsh conditions to any kind of agreement on trade.
5. Keep the situation in place indefinitely and reject on the spot requests to join the EU.

Like a proper divorce with prematrimonial agreements, the wife gets the house and the money.
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  #3264  
Old 26.01.2016, 09:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed.

Now, coming to strategy.

As an EU voter, I think that a good strategy from the EU would be:

1. Let bilaterals fall.
2. Impose visas and taxes to businesses that export to the EU.
3. Never renegotiate any "bilaterals" ever again. They have already proven to be absolutely useless due to the very little commitment that Switzerland has about it.
4. If asked, put rather harsh conditions to any kind of agreement on trade.
5. Keep the situation in place indefinitely and reject on the spot requests to join the EU.

Like a proper divorce with prematrimonial agreements, the wife gets the house and the money.
And start charging high (20% of value) fees for merchandise transiting Switzerland!

And long waits at the border for trucks!

Tom
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  #3265  
Old 26.01.2016, 09:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Nowhere does it support your claim that "Schengen is a precursor of FMOP".
In fact it handily lists most of the countries that adopted FMOP before Schengen and the countries that have FMOP without Schengen.
"The Schengen Agreement led to the creation of Europe's borderless Schengen Area. The treaty was signed on 14 June 1985 by five of the ten member states of the then European Economic Community near the town of Schengen in Luxembourg but was only partially implemented until 1995."

I.e., BEFORE FMOP!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyour...FTU_2.1.3.html

Tom
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  #3266  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed.

Now, coming to strategy.

As an EU voter, I think that a good strategy from the EU would be:

1. Let bilaterals fall.
2. Impose visas and taxes to businesses that export to the EU.
3. Never renegotiate any "bilaterals" ever again. They have already proven to be absolutely useless due to the very little commitment that Switzerland has about it.
4. If asked, put rather harsh conditions to any kind of agreement on trade.
5. Keep the situation in place indefinitely and reject on the spot requests to join the EU.

Like a proper divorce with prematrimonial agreements, the wife gets the house and the money.
That sounds civilized. The EU has about 10 different Bilateral agreements, and and a number of dozen Free Trade agreements.

Can we talk to our relatives on the EU side, and will you also build a wall around it?

Hahaha
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  #3267  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"The Schengen Agreement led to the creation of Europe's borderless Schengen Area. The treaty was signed on 14 June 1985 by five of the ten member states of the then European Economic Community near the town of Schengen in Luxembourg but was only partially implemented until 1995."

I.e., BEFORE FMOP!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyour...FTU_2.1.3.html

Tom
A little knowledge can be

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyour...FTU_2.1.3.html

"Objectives
The concept of the free movement of persons has changed in meaning since its inception. The first provisions on the subject, in the 1957 Treaty establishing the European Economic Community (1.1.1, 3.1.3 and 3.1.4), covered the free movement of workers and freedom of establishment, and thus individuals as employees or service providers."
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  #3268  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And start charging high (20% of value) fees for merchandise transiting Switzerland!

And long waits at the border for trucks!

Tom
Geography:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...12d47bdde4c1af

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...fd3f96c747d9f7

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...2cf55c24635e6f

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...e85d6b8e91e55b

seems to state that Switzerland can be avoided as a route anyway and in any case Trucks will be self-driving in the future, so they will not mind. Few hundreds kms are an irrelevant cost compared to the 20% you would like to charge.
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  #3269  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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That sounds civilized. The EU has about 10 different Bilateral agreements, and and a number of dozen Free Trade agreements.

Can we talk to our relatives on the EU side, and will you also build a wall around it?

Hahaha

At the right cost of course.
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  #3270  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I think the EU will just dwindle down to about France, Germany and Benelux countries. The southern Countries; Portugal, Spain, Italy & Greece can form their own when Germany runs out of money. UK and Scandanavian country can form their own, the the Eastern European countries can have theirs around Poland.

Might as well give up the name EU altogether.
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  #3271  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think the EU will just dwindle down to about France, Germany and Benelux countries. The southern Countries; Portugal, Spain, Italy & Greece can form their own when Germany runs out of money. UK and Scandanavian country can form their own, the the Eastern European countries can have theirs around Poland.

Might as well give up the name EU altogether.
And the unicorns will fart rainbows: the cost of returning back to a state of things before FMOP was estimated to be in the hundreds of billions.
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Old 26.01.2016, 10:43
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And the unicorns will fart rainbows: the cost of returning back to a state of things before FMOP was estimated to be in the hundreds of billions.

I think a lot of this will depend on how rigid EU governance will be towards its members and associates. If as you suggested, they take on a more rigid line, it will surely crack regardless of these trumped up estimates.

The goals of the EU can be accomplished through voluntary compliance. But it is clear this incarnation of the EU is less concerned about the intended effect, and more concerned about gaining authority.

Like I previously posted, the EU really should just be like a membership club that provides some value to its members. But it looks like some would rather see it become more like the USSR.
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Old 26.01.2016, 10:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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trumped up estimates.
400 millions people of which many commuting or with a business outside the originating country. It does not take a mathematician.
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  #3274  
Old 26.01.2016, 10:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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400 millions people of which many commuting or with a business outside the originating country. It does not take a mathematician.
The EU doesn't own this concept. If the EU were truly for this, it would allow this unencumbered instead of leveraging it as a threat against those they would like to extract more compliance from. If they were to prevent this, clearly it isn't something they were not really in favor of.

So really, what you are seeing and suggesting is EU protectionism. But what is it they are protecting, if not individual member states? I'd say they are protecting their apparatus in Brussels.
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Old 26.01.2016, 11:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Personally, I preferred life in Switzerland before the bilaterals.
Do you miss the Zürich thaler, Fribourg gulden, Geneva genevoise and Basel thaler?
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Switzerland should just unilaterally break off the bilaterals, and if the mafia in Brussels want to re-open it, then deal as adults. The idea that Switzerland should kowtow to everything Brussels wants is for the weak willed and weak minded.
Actually the EU did deal with Switzerland as adults. A series of linked treaties were negotiated by both sides, agreed to and signed. Switzerland now wants to return to those treaties, renege on much of what it agreed, yet keep what it gained - that doesn't sound all that much like adult behaviour.

Of course, you could argue that the EU should be adult and be open to this. Why exactly? It's not in the EU's interests as it has nothing to gain. Termination of the agreements would result in loss of trade with Switzerland, which is hardly going to make a big difference to the EU.

Ultimately Switzerland does not have a particularly strong hand to play. Greece had a stronger hand and that didn't get them anywhere. Added to this the UK is a far bigger concern to Brussels and showing weakness in the face of Switzerland would be a bad idea for this reason.

We live in an age of globalization, where nation states are increasingly being pushed aside by large federations and blocks. Evolve or die.
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The EU is crumbling, they know it and they don't have a solution to fix it.
I've been hearing this for years - I remember hearing it had six months back around 2010.

If the EU does fail, it'll probably be down to the fact that it is stuck between being a loose trade confederation and a USE. There's more than a few parallels between it and the Old Swiss confederation - unable to act cohesively because national governments want a united front on one side, but don't want to dilute their own power in favour of a common parliament, currency or government either. The Old Swiss confederation almost fell apart a few times, and was predicted to do so on a regular basis - in the end, it became the modern Swiss federation. Perhaps the EU will do the same. Perhaps not.

But I would not take the enthusiastic prophesies of eurosceptics as a guide on the subject any more than I would seek the opinion of fundamentalist Christians on evolution.
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Many have give it a couple of months to avert it, but there is no agreement on a solution nor on the nature of the problem.
My guess is that in a couple of months, you'll be still predicting the demise of the EU, but pushing out the date indefinitely.
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Old 26.01.2016, 11:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And start charging high (20% of value) fees for merchandise transiting Switzerland!

And long waits at the border for trucks!

Tom

Dangerous game to start.


Switzerland is completely surrounded by the EU and it is not possible for people or goods to leave or arrive without crossing the EU.
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Old 26.01.2016, 11:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Switzerland is completely surrounded by the EU and it is not possible for people or goods to leave or arrive without crossing the EU.
Not so! We border Lichtenstein!
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Old 26.01.2016, 11:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Dangerous game to start.


Switzerland is completely surrounded by the EU and it is not possible for people or goods to leave or arrive without crossing the EU.

Yeah, true, because the EU is all about threats and extortion, right?
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Old 26.01.2016, 11:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think a lot of this will depend on how rigid EU governance will be towards its members and associates. If as you suggested, they take on a more rigid line, it will surely crack regardless of these trumped up estimates.

The goals of the EU can be accomplished through voluntary compliance. But it is clear this incarnation of the EU is less concerned about the intended effect, and more concerned about gaining authority.

Like I previously posted, the EU really should just be like a membership club that provides some value to its members. But it looks like some would rather see it become more like the USSR.
.


About "see it become more like the USSR" USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) like Russia now and Switzerland now was a Federation so what exactly do you see as significantly different?
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Old 26.01.2016, 11:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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.


About "see it become more like the USSR" USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) like Russia now and Switzerland now was a Federation so what exactly do you see as significantly different?
Let's see... hmmmm, how about central planning of the economy, social engineering and a politburo to start?
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