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  #3281  
Old 26.01.2016, 11:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The EU doesn't own this concept. If the EU were truly for this, it would allow this unencumbered instead of leveraging it as a threat against those they would like to extract more compliance from. If they were to prevent this, clearly it isn't something they were not really in favor of.

So really, what you are seeing and suggesting is EU protectionism. But what is it they are protecting, if not individual member states? I'd say they are protecting their apparatus in Brussels.
As I stated before, I think it only a matter of business. After treaties and negotiations fail, a severe but civilised competition should be in place until the next possibility to talk, that should be long enough. More than one generation for sure.
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  #3282  
Old 26.01.2016, 12:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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As I stated before, I think it only a matter of business. After treaties and negotiations fail, a severe but civilised competition should be in place until the next possibility to talk, that should be long enough. More than one generation for sure.
Or one cycle of a political season, which in this day and age, tends to occur in periods of months.

At the end of the day, it isn't about hurt feelings of politicians. In fact, it really shouldn't be about politicians at all. Who cares about their vendettas? They are expected to be more professional than that. You assess the pros and cons, then you structure a deal.
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  #3283  
Old 26.01.2016, 12:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You assess the pros and cons, then you structure a deal.
What are the pros and cons of allowing Switzerland to renege on freedom of movement, other than keeping trade with Switzerland (which is not that important from the EU perspective) and it and encouraging other states to get revised deals?

Last edited by Aeneas; 26.01.2016 at 12:21.
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  #3284  
Old 26.01.2016, 12:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Or one cycle of a political season, which in this day and age, tends to occur in periods of months.

At the end of the day, it isn't about hurt feelings of politicians. In fact, it really shouldn't be about politicians at all. Who cares about their vendettas? They are expected to be more professional than that. You assess the pros and cons, then you structure a deal.
Pros: Maybe a small commercial partner, going to see the stats it is not too much really.

Cons: having to deal with someone that breaks convenient deals on a whim and a population that is generally not happy with the EU. European citizens pissed off because the EU does not intervene to safeguard their interests, a voice of continuous discomtent and scorn within the group of collaborators for a project than in itself is already difficult enough.

Look, in the very small I had to deal with a guy that was never happy about anything and criticized all the time everybody even when he made evident mistakes, he was not Swiss, nor Italian, but when he left the work for something else, it was so much easier after. It is more or less the same story here.
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  #3285  
Old 26.01.2016, 12:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Could be.

I think you are working from the premise that everyone will simply throw all their toys out of the pram. I think it is still based on the premise, which could be very well true, that the EU is simply an organization for threats and extortion.

Some European value, eh? Personally, I think they are capable of exercising more reason than that.
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  #3286  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Let's see... hmmmm, how about central planning of the economy, social engineering and a politburo to start?

About "central planning of the economy"


You do know the EU states have to have their budgets approved by the EU and face fines if they do not conform?


About "Politburo"; there is the European Council which defines the general political direction and priorities of the European Union
Link;
http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutio...l/index_en.htm


About "Social Engineering" - this is a vague term with many definitions; if you look at Schengen, FMOP, Human rights &&& you see many EU influences in this direction.


So again; what do you see different between the EU structure and the USSR.
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  #3287  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:04
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "central planning of the economy

So again; what do you see different between the EU structure and the USSR.
I think you are mixing up your questions and topics again to slither around instead of thinking.

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.
About "see it become more like the USSR" USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) like Russia now and Switzerland now was a Federation so what exactly do you see as significantly different?
I explained to you the differentiation between a regular federation and the USSR.
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  #3288  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think you are mixing up your questions and topics again to slither around instead of thinking.



I explained to you the differentiation between a regular federation and the USSR.


Excuse me but you were the one who brought up the topic of the USSR, not me.


About "I explained to you the differentiation between a regular federation and the USSR" Actually you did not?
Anyway the question was what is the difference between the EU structure (not the structure of a regular federation) and the structure of the USSR.


You answered with three points, sadly not one was valid


BTW, I don't slither; is that some sort of new dance?
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  #3289  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

No, I find your questions are sideways, then steps here and there like the mambo, yet does nothing to the issues at hand. You look for points of contention as if it does anything at all to the realities at hand. So if you don't mind, I may not answer them if I don't think they are of any particular relevance, ok? I'll let you answer them yourself.
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  #3290  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No, I find your questions are sideways, then steps here and there like the mambo, yet does nothing to the issues at hand. You look for points of contention as if it does anything at all to the realities at hand. So if you don't mind, I may not answer them if I don't think they are of any particular relevance, ok? I'll let you answer them yourself.
You write posts as if they are factual and then when you are asked to support what you wrote you post "So if you don't mind, I may not answer them if I don't think they are of any particular relevance, ok?"

OK for me.

Sadly I cannot answer them myself as you propose because I do not know where you got your original (dis)information from.
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  #3291  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Okay, I'll take it as a compliment. If you disagree, feel free to state why. The side, "About the....blah blah blah?" thing I found to be more digressive than elaborative in the past. Unnecessary postings.
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  #3292  
Old 26.01.2016, 13:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Okay, I'll take it as a compliment. If you disagree, feel free to state why. The side, "About the....blah blah blah?" thing I found to be more digressive than elaborative in the past. Unnecessary postings.

If you want to take it as a compliment that is fine with me.


When I ask you to justify the statements in some of your posts you reply "does nothing to the issues at hand. You look for points of contention as if it does anything at all to the realities at hand."
Since my questions are about the content of your posts then you are implying that it is your original posts that are off-topic?


Then you talk about unnecessary postings
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  #3293  
Old 26.01.2016, 14:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Could be.

I think you are working from the premise that everyone will simply throw all their toys out of the pram. I think it is still based on the premise, which could be very well true, that the EU is simply an organization for threats and extortion.

Some European value, eh? Personally, I think they are capable of exercising more reason than that.
How do you see an extorsion here, it is just a plain statement:

We don't want you around in this project for the time being and possibly also not in the future until things are consolidated, and even if, we will see in which terms, cause you negative about it and consolidating a continent requires quite some effort in itself.

It is likely to be a bumpy travel, it may even fail, but we prefer to do it, cause, simply put, we have been divided for too long.

Let's simply compete, we don't hate you, we don't love you, you are just some people that may or may not buy stuff. No treaty, no nothing, it is risky considering the easiness with which the bilaterals were put into discussion, and, given this project, we need certainties and to move on solid ground.

We will set prices convenient for us, but stay reasonable, for sure we want you to buy something and we for sure have no interest in creating problems that for you would be unsolvable. You will probably do the same.

Actually, in the first place, we wanted to ease things, but ok, it did not go as expected. Let's backtrack and forget about it.
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  #3294  
Old 26.01.2016, 14:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I think that is fine, because that is closer to the reality of what it is. The deception of cooperation is only misleading people, and I would rather have people see and acknowledge what it is for what it is.

I will point out that approach is on a trajectory toward shrinkage rather than enlargement.

Pragmatically and strategically, I would keep a close eye on what happens in the UK referendum, and the Germany crisis. I think the actual deconstruction of it will likely occur as a falling house of cards rather than a gradual dismantling. As members fall out, they can establish trade agreements with each other as to cushion any downside from an EU fallout.
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  #3295  
Old 26.01.2016, 14:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Excuse me but you were the one who brought up the topic of the USSR, not me.


About "I explained to you the differentiation between a regular federation and the USSR" Actually you did not?
Anyway the question was what is the difference between the EU structure (not the structure of a regular federation) and the structure of the USSR.


You answered with three points, sadly not one was valid


BTW, I don't slither; is that some sort of new dance?

Don't expect Phos' posts to be logical. He's still in troll mode, perhaps always will.
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  #3296  
Old 26.01.2016, 14:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Just keep an eye on whats going on and where things are headed. Those are more telling than rhetoric on here.

Clearly, even EU officials acknowledge this, the EU is suffering from a severe credibility gap.
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  #3297  
Old 26.01.2016, 16:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Just keep an eye on whats going on and where things are headed. Those are more telling than rhetoric on here.

Clearly, even EU officials acknowledge this, the EU is suffering from a severe credibility gap.
Believe me, any hope it will falter is not well posed. It will not go on with bilateral stuff of any kind, in reality what will happen is:

re-instate some border controls due to the immigration crisis, that is all. But fast ones using new technology so that the pain to control is small, and the cost too is small. That is all that will happen. It won't kill FMOP not even a bit, only limit, and very little, Schengen.

FMOP is too convenient, it gives so many possiblities, everybody understood how convenient it is, and in the long term it is an unstoppable process. It creates that sort of mobility that allows absolutely irrelevant people to build their life and have a say.

Many understood this, and many benefited from this already. And these many do not want this to stop.
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  #3298  
Old 26.01.2016, 16:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Don't expect Phos' posts to be logical. He's still in troll mode, perhaps always will.
Sometimes he writes very good posts.

So when a strange one appears I assume I am just slow and missed the point therefore I ask.

I am just so an optimist
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  #3299  
Old 26.01.2016, 17:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Wait, weren't you just accusing me of confusing Schengen with FMOP?

Suspending Schengen may be the only way to deal with the migrant crisis at the moment, and it may take much longer to reopen than we imagine. It basically means a slowdown at the border, not necessarily a stoppage.

Definitely, there are benefits to FMOP, but I think more important than FMOP is FMOG, S an C. There is no reason why this should not continue, its the liberal economy.

The problem with all this is that someone will always suffer one way or another. Think of what will happen to Italy when they suspend Schengen, which can happen in a few days from now. Half a million people can be headed towards Italy in a month. Now watch if the EU will be doing anything to really help Italy other than make a few statements of blame here and there.
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Old 26.01.2016, 17:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Wait, weren't you just accusing me of confusing Schengen with FMOP?

Suspending Schengen may be the only way to deal with the migrant crisis at the moment, and it may take much longer to reopen than we imagine. It basically means a slowdown at the border, not necessarily a stoppage.

Definitely, there are benefits to FMOP, but I think more important than FMOP is FMOG, S an C. There is no reason why this should not continue, its the liberal economy.

The problem with all this is that someone will always suffer one way or another. Think of what will happen to Italy when they suspend Schengen, which can happen in a few days from now. Half a million people can be headed towards Italy in a month. Now watch if the EU will be doing anything to really help Italy other than make a few statements of blame here and there.
We are strong people, don't worry about us, we will manage. And differently from when we did not have something called EU, we wil present the bill to the other 28 states, who will complain, but will pay, or they can forget pizza and Italian wine.
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