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  #3321  
Old 27.01.2016, 16:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You're asking for logic to back your sentiments and fears of MEI and EU threats? That's ridiculous. Your position has no basis in logic at all. Its only fearmongering. THAT is trolling.

But in this I read that you have fear of the EU and the MEI consequences. Fear of the EU: , we are talking in a forum, I am European, I like dogs, don't particularly love cats, prefer them with potatoes though. MEI consequences: .

The worst it can happen is that things become inconvenient for everybody, which I sincerely hope for the reasons I explained before, at that point talks can restart, More importantly, we see the future wanted by the UDC.

My gamble, but please notice that I admit it is a gamble: I think people will notice quickly how difficult it is to do business without effective laws in place.

It may also happen something very interesting: since you need researchers, you remain open for researchers and put a point system in place. Which, from my only perspective, I sincerely hope you do as it would make a lot of sense for everybody in research (my perspective). Except eventually for UDC whose people like to generalize a bit too much.

Maybe it is even the only restriction to FMOP that one could conceive acceptable from an associate state, although in the long term it forms a sort of elitism that is going to create other kinds of problems and it is again a compromise.
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  #3322  
Old 27.01.2016, 16:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What has it been replaced with now? Moral relativism? So truth is dead?
Well about "objective reality"; how many versions of reality are acceptable in your world?
In my word I manage with one reality
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  #3323  
Old 27.01.2016, 17:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Maybe it is even the only restriction to FMOP that one could conceive acceptable from an associate state, although in the long term it forms a sort of elitism that is going to create other kinds of problems and it is again a compromise.
A lot of the EU relationships are customized and relative. The point that is being Goebbelized in this thread is that Switzerland can either take it as it is or leave it. I don't believe that at all, as the specialization of bilaterals is proof.

As for exceptionalism, hmmm, I don't see it as elitism rather as uniqueness. In an open and pluralistic society, that is valued. Perhaps not in other kinds of societies.
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  #3324  
Old 27.01.2016, 17:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Just as an example of what I mean on a proper and optimum organization, which the EU and its proponents really need to get into its head. Not everybody is the same. You can't have a football team where every player is a goalie. You need to take their strengths and weakness and use them in the right position. Not a lot different for an international organization. The old joke:

Heaven Is Where:
The French are the chefs
The Italians are the lovers
The British are the police
The Germans are the mechanics
And the Swiss make everything run on time

Hell is Where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police
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  #3325  
Old 27.01.2016, 17:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

A proper and optimum organisation should not have to rely on ad hoc solutions and exceptions.
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  #3326  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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A proper and optimum organisation should not have to rely on ad hoc solutions and exceptions.
That is fine for an organization that have a singular purpose, such as making cookies of all the same shapes and sizes. That kind of organization was fine for the beginning of the industrial revolution. In this era of knowledge and information, those kinds of organizations are being ditched for agility. For agility, you need an inventory of diverse talents and capabilities.

Which brings to mind how the EU is doing Europeans another disfavor, by taking away its edge in many areas.
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Old 27.01.2016, 18:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Yes. But not one sided measures that has just one partner benefit. I think past two years were important in some people's processing of why "have one's cake and eat it" isn't possible. Contracts are binding, law is a fair and efficient cookie cutter. There are penalties, and I am mainly sad for research funds suffering. Diverse talents here not having enough opportunities compared to before.
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  #3328  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yes. But not one sided measures that has just one partner benefit. I think past two years were important in some people's processing of why "have one's cake and eat it" isn't possible. Contracts are binding, law is a fair and efficient cookie cutter. There are penalties, and I am mainly sad for research funds suffering.
That suspension was a punitive action on behalf of the EU.
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  #3329  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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That suspension was a punitive action on behalf of the EU.
One has to stick to the contract, n'est pas.
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Old 27.01.2016, 18:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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One has to stick to the contract, n'est pas.
Which part of the contract did Switzerland breach, please? Holding a vote on a referendum?
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  #3331  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The vote resulted in broken contract. Portraying EU as responsible for CH vote isn't logical. Somebody didn't do their homework in terms of the consequences their vote is going to have.
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  #3332  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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That suspension was a punitive action on behalf of the EU.
No it was a sensible reaction to a partner who wrote a letter stating they planned to unilaterally change a contract that was in place.
You cannot give long term research funds to a partner to recruit researchers across the whole EU when that partner plans to stop FMOP so there is no guarantee EU researchers would get work permits.
The EU will not give Switzerland research funds when the only possible pool of research people are Swiss.
It is not rocket science is it?
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  #3333  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Which part of the contract did Switzerland breach, please? Holding a vote on a referendum?
You know the answer and are trolling again
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  #3334  
Old 27.01.2016, 18:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The vote resulted in broken contract. Portraying EU as responsible for CH vote isn't logical. Somebody didn't do their homework in terms of the consequences their vote is going to have.
Well I am sure they did their homework but hid the conclusions
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  #3335  
Old 27.01.2016, 19:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You know the answer and are trolling again
The only conclusion here is that to stop a troll, you have to stop feeding it. Basta cosi.
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  #3336  
Old 27.01.2016, 19:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The vote resulted in broken contract. Portraying EU as responsible for CH vote isn't logical. Somebody didn't do their homework in terms of the consequences their vote is going to have.
I don't see how Switzerland had broken the bilateral other than holding a vote. They cut off access to funding immediately after the vote. Switzerland had not yet acted on the results of the referendum.

Is this not a retaliatory action on the part of the EU? Don't they do this over and over again to other countries that do not behave the way they want them to?

In any case, still proves what the EU is about.
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  #3337  
Old 27.01.2016, 20:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The insinuation that those against the 28th of Feb vote are the wacko socialists is totally wrong. Here is the message from Phillip Müller, President of the FDP/PLR party which represents business people and professionals:

Non à l’initiative de mise en œuvre
Les criminels étrangers sont d’ores et déjà renvoyés. Voilà pourquoi il est nécessaire de refuser l’initiative de mise en œuvre. Le parlement a mis sous toit, au printemps dernier et dans les délais, l’initiative pour le renvoi des criminels étrangers avec une loi d’application très stricte. Cette dernière n’est pas encore entrée en vigueur à cause de l’initiative de mise en œuvre. En comparaison à la loi proposée, l’initiative ajoute seulement la prise en compte de délits mineurs, des bagatelles ! Elle est totalement disproportionnée et irréaliste. En outre, l’initiative de mise en œuvre méprise l’Etat de droit, dont nous libéraux-radicaux sommes à l’origine. Notre système gouvernemental finement équilibré doit être préservé et défendu par tous les libéraux-radicaux. Il faut donc dire NON à l’initiative de mise en œuvre anti-suisse !
A ce sujet, vous trouverez en annexe mon interview parue dans le Blick du lundi 25 janvier.

In short- current Law already includes all the elements to allow for the expulsion of foreign criminals. The initiative just adds very minor 'crimes' and excludes any assessment by the judicial system- and is therefore disproportionate and unrealistic.

Must say I am surprised he does not mentioned the poosible consequences for export and business already at risk due to the strength of the Swiss france and high costs/wages.
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  #3338  
Old 27.01.2016, 20:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well I am sure they did their homework but hid the conclusions
I don't mean parties, those are just propagandists with private interests mostly. I mean voters, journalists, open fora..those who do not have private interests invested.

There is something I really like here, candor and sincerity. But people do not question so much, trust the hierarchy, adhere to rules if it serves the community. When hierarchy (here the political elites) mislead, spams public information channels with populistic manipulative eye candy, and it gets combined with traditional conformism and risk aversion, the results are scary. No homework done.

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The only conclusion here is that to stop a troll, you have to stop feeding it. Basta cosi.
I like your "basta cosi". A mod can't adopt it, though, me thinks. I'd be called at least Mussolini.

Troll? It does look like some kind of mental gym, true. Running in circles.
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  #3339  
Old 27.01.2016, 20:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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One has to stick to the contract, n'est pas.
Like Greece has done since......... ever ???
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Old 27.01.2016, 20:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Must say I am surprised he does not mentioned the poosible consequences for export and business already at risk due to the strength of the Swiss france and high costs/wages.
What consequences ??? Do you really think the EU is going to pick a fight with the Swiss after their own (including German) flouting of the Dublin regulation , their continual inability to prosecute Greece for lying blatantly to this very day about their use of EU money ?
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