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  #3421  
Old 04.03.2016, 19:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"If a certain number of foreigners become Swiss this year, we gain that against potential quotas."
That's nonsense IMHO. The initiative does not limit the percentage of foreign citizens living in Switzerland. A quota according to the initiative would most certainly restrict net or gross immigration per year. Naturalization wouldn't change anything.
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  #3422  
Old 04.03.2016, 19:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Great! Allow Croatians free movement then slap a general quota limit on all EU nationals. Isn't that more or less what Croatia has at the moment?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-ag...ramme/42000888
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  #3423  
Old 04.03.2016, 21:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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How is it not unconstitutional?

Article 121a section 4:

Es dürfen keine völkerrechtlichen Verträge abgeschlossen werden, die gegen diesen Artikel verstossen.
Quote by the Bundesrat from February 2014 "When Croatia joined the EU on 1 June 2013, the bilateral agreements between Switzerland and the EU were automatically extended to Croatia, with the exception of the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons (FMP).
With the adoption of the popular initiative "Stop mass immigration" on 9 February 2014, however, Switzerland is no longer in a position to sign Protocol III.
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  #3424  
Old 04.03.2016, 21:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Quote by the Bundesrat from February 2014 "When Croatia joined the EU on 1 June 2013, the bilateral agreements between Switzerland and the EU were automatically extended to Croatia, with the exception of the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons (FMP).
With the adoption of the popular initiative "Stop mass immigration" on 9 February 2014, however, Switzerland is no longer in a position to sign Protocol III.
Think the key words may be in here:

"Croatia became the 28th member of the European Union (EU) on 1 July 2013. Croatia’s accession does not have any immediate bearing on the Agreement of Free Movement of Persons (AFM) concluded between Switzerland and the EU because each time a new member joins the EU, the agreement is supplemented by an additional protocol.

The agreement was extended to Croatia through Protocol III, which was initialled in 2013. The protocol envisages the full free movement of persons with Croatia following a ten-year transitional period.

On 9 February 2014, the Swiss electorate adopted a popular initiative aimed at stopping mass immigration. As a result, the Federal Council is no longer in a position to sign Protocol III in its original version because it violates the new constitutional provisions.

The admission of Croatian nationals to Switzerland is therefore still subject to the provisions of the Foreign Nationals Act (FNA). From 1 July 2014, Croatian nationals will be subject to separate quotas on access to the Swiss labour market. These quotas comprise 50 one-year B permits and 450 short-term L permits."

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...r_schweiz.html

Presumably they've come up with a new version which isn't unconstitutional.
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  #3425  
Old 04.03.2016, 22:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Think the key words may be in here:

"Croatia became the 28th member of the European Union (EU) on 1 July 2013. Croatia’s accession does not have any immediate bearing on the Agreement of Free Movement of Persons (AFM) concluded between Switzerland and the EU because each time a new member joins the EU, the agreement is supplemented by an additional protocol.

The agreement was extended to Croatia through Protocol III, which was initialled in 2013. The protocol envisages the full free movement of persons with Croatia following a ten-year transitional period.

On 9 February 2014, the Swiss electorate adopted a popular initiative aimed at stopping mass immigration. As a result, the Federal Council is no longer in a position to sign Protocol III in its original version because it violates the new constitutional provisions.

The admission of Croatian nationals to Switzerland is therefore still subject to the provisions of the Foreign Nationals Act (FNA). From 1 July 2014, Croatian nationals will be subject to separate quotas on access to the Swiss labour market. These quotas comprise 50 one-year B permits and 450 short-term L permits."

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...r_schweiz.html

Presumably they've come up with a new version which isn't unconstitutional.
"Presumably they've come up with a new version which isn't unconstitutional." Or they do not care too much if it is
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  #3426  
Old 04.03.2016, 22:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"Presumably they've come up with a new version which isn't unconstitutional." Or they do not care too much if it is
Or maybe they can let Croatians have free movement as they plan to slap a quota on all EU nationals - still the same result for Croatians. Limited opportunities to get jobs here.
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  #3427  
Old 05.03.2016, 02:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

SVP also claim the decision to sign the Protocol for Croatia for FMOP was against the Constitution here (German Language).

I foresee the two SVP Cabinet ministers will get a good smacking from their colleagues

Looking at the SVP web site it is amazing that the party with the most voters and two cabinet ministers are still acting like they are in opposition and objecting to everything.
It is really depressing; the SVP would really do some good with positive policies!
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  #3428  
Old 05.03.2016, 15:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Some people are theorising that the solid voter rejection of the DSI gives Parliament and the Bundesrat some flexibility to interpret the implementation of referendums like this Masseneinwanderung.
For example it was not clear at voting time this Masseneinwanderung referendum would damage the bilaterals; indeed some supporters flatly lied about this risk.
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  #3429  
Old 05.03.2016, 15:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

It was very clear to anyone who was prepared to read around it and listen- but those who voted for it just didn't want to know, or to listen, or to read - about from the UDC/SVP **ap sheet they got in the letter-box.

Last edited by Odile; 05.03.2016 at 17:02.
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  #3430  
Old 05.03.2016, 16:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

"The answer may depend on what the meaning of is is".
Or rather in this case, what the definiton of "Vertrag" is as per the german version of the Constitution.

The BR signed a protocol, not an agreement or treaty which is what article 121a BV forbids. So by the letter signing Protocl III may be legal, though the spirit of 121a may well have been broken.
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  #3431  
Old 05.03.2016, 17:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It was very clear to anyone who was prepared to read around it and listen- but those who voted for it just didn't want to know, or to listen, or to read
Oh, yes they did.

Tom
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  #3432  
Old 05.03.2016, 20:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It was very clear to anyone who was prepared to read around it and listen- but those who voted for it just didn't want to know, or to listen, or to read
Oh, yes they did.
Indeed, I encountered a number of folks parroting the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters, but when I asked for supporting documentation, they changed the subject, hurled epithets at me or simply vanished. The few who proferred "evidence" immediately backpedaled when I began asking exactly how their supposed documentation actually corroborated their claims.

It's truly saddening how US/Western polarizing political tactics have become acceptable in the Swiss political process. One of Switzerland's own lower quality media sources itself even commented recently on the erosion of consensus as a feature of Swiss politics.
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  #3433  
Old 05.03.2016, 20:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed, I encountered a number of folks parroting the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters, but when I asked for supporting documentation, they changed the subject, hurled epithets at me or simply vanished. The few who proferred "evidence" immediately backpedaled when I began asking exactly how their supposed documentation actually corroborated their claims.

It's truly saddening how US/Western polarizing political tactics have become acceptable in the Swiss political process. One of Switzerland's own lower quality media sources itself even commented recently on the erosion of consensus as a feature of Swiss politics.
"the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters" do you have an example or better still unequivocal, hard evidence of such statements?
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  #3434  
Old 06.03.2016, 00:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Some of the Kantons are proposing to meet the MEI requirements by having "safeguard" clauses at the Kantonal level.

More details here in German language.
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  #3435  
Old 06.03.2016, 13:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Finally the real discussion about MEI is starting (some years too late), FDP wants an initiative about the PFZ & Bilaterals which makes senses since it is impossible to implement the MEI without breaking the PFZ and Bilaterals, which was clear when MEI initiative was launched (doh). I'm surprised that it took so long for many Swiss to realise this, it was obvious from the very beginning!

sorry only in German:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/29262804
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Old 06.03.2016, 13:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed, I encountered a number of folks parroting the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters, but when I asked for supporting documentation, they changed the subject, hurled epithets at me or simply vanished. The few who proferred "evidence" immediately backpedaled when I began asking exactly how their supposed documentation actually corroborated their claims.
I'm a bit at a loss here so forgive me if this happens to be a stupid question:
Are you being sarcastic? Kind of showing a mirror image of what SVP talking heads said about the DSI?

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Some of the Kantons are proposing to meet the MEI requirements by having "safeguard" clauses at the Kantonal level.

More details here in German language.
Wouldnt' that would mean re-enacting border controls at the Kanton level? Though I thought they'd been done in with 200 or so years ago.
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  #3437  
Old 06.03.2016, 15:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Finally the real discussion about MEI is starting (some years too late), FDP wants an initiative about the PFZ & Bilaterals which makes senses since it is impossible to implement the MEI without breaking the PFZ and Bilaterals, which was clear when MEI initiative was launched (doh). I'm surprised that it took so long for many Swiss to realise this, it was obvious from the very beginning!

sorry only in German:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/29262804
Before the MEI vote I spoke with a number of Swiss voters (limited sample I know) about the bilateral risk but they all said there was no risk; a couple even said they heard this on television (sorry, do not know which program).

I tried, but failed, to convince them otherwise.

Question now is "do they and other similar people feel they have been lied to" or will they stick to their original position. Certainly the ones I spoke to recently do not admit they were saying there was no risk; possibly too proud to admit mistakes
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  #3438  
Old 06.03.2016, 15:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'm a bit at a loss here so forgive me if this happens to be a stupid question:
Are you being sarcastic? Kind of showing a mirror image of what SVP talking heads said about the DSI?


Wouldnt' that would mean re-enacting border controls at the Kanton level? Though I thought they'd been done in with 200 or so years ago.
The situation used to be that Kantons issued permits (not federal) so if that is still the case then it would be easy for Kantons to manage a local safeguard clause.

If the Kantons implemented this idea of local safeguard clauses would it still be against the EU bilaterals because there would then be no published national FMOP limit (just an implicit one)?
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  #3439  
Old 06.03.2016, 15:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Finally the real discussion about MEI is starting (some years too late), FDP wants an initiative about the PFZ & Bilaterals which makes senses since it is impossible to implement the MEI without breaking the PFZ and Bilaterals, which was clear when MEI initiative was launched (doh). I'm surprised that it took so long for many Swiss to realise this, it was obvious from the very beginning!

sorry only in German:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/29262804
As you say, it was clear with the MEI vote and they voted on it, so why vote again?
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  #3440  
Old 06.03.2016, 19:01
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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As you say, it was clear with the MEI vote and they voted on it, so why vote again?
because the BR cannot implement the MEI as is as EU will not accept it...and cancelling the bilaterals will have a huge impact, I mean there are tons of crap initiatives why not launch something really useful...
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