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  #3461  
Old 07.03.2016, 12:15
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It is prejury. Only applicable in court:
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a307

In many jurisdriction a felony.
As described in the document, it's not simply perjury, but also false accusations and what in English would be called perverting the course of justice.
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  #3462  
Old 07.03.2016, 12:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Like being drunk on a train? And then finding oneself in an argument with the conductor or security guard?

Now while ending up in an argument with an official on the train, while drunk, is nothing to be proud of, is it really the sort of offence that merits deportation?
Yes, what better way to get rid of English football hooligans!

Tom
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  #3463  
Old 07.03.2016, 12:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yes, what better way to get rid of English football hooligans!
Well if we want to impose draconian measures for minor infringements, is a separate discussion. All I was addressing was the claim that the initiative did not impose draconian measures for minor infringements - a claim that turned out to be a big porkie pie.

As to a better way to get rid of English football hooligans, just cancel all return Ryanair or Cityjet flights from popular stag party destinations.
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  #3464  
Old 07.03.2016, 12:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No, it is not.

"violazione del bando" is anti-social behavior, BTW.

Tom
It is little bit more than that:
Art. 291 Swiss Criminal Code.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a291

Edit: anti-social behavour is more like Art. 292.

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 07.03.2016 at 12:41.
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  #3465  
Old 07.03.2016, 12:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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As described in the document, it's not simply perjury, but also false accusations and what in English would be called perverting the course of justice.
False accusation is Art. 303 and perverting the course of justice is partely Art. 304
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  #3466  
Old 07.03.2016, 12:52
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well, none of those sound like speeding or traffic offences of any kind.

PS: Trespass + damage == Break in.
"Trespass + damage == Break in."

Well I will quote the codes. Break-in is included but it is not exclusively break-in. Even with "break-in" could be minor!

I agree about perjury.

Art. 186 Unlawful entry

Unlawful entry

Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a building, an apartment, a self-contained room within a building, an enclosed area, courtyard or garden forming a direct part of a building, or a clearly demarcated workplace or, despite requests from the lawful occupants to leave, remains in such a location, is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.

Art. 144 1. Offences against property. / Criminal damage

Criminal damage

1 Any person who damages, destroys or renders unusable property belonging to another or in respect of which another has a right of use is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
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  #3467  
Old 07.03.2016, 14:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"Trespass + damage == Break in."

Well I will quote the codes. Break-in is included but it is not exclusively break-in. Even with "break-in" could be minor!

I agree about perjury.

Art. 186 Unlawful entry

Unlawful entry

Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a building, an apartment, a self-contained room within a building, an enclosed area, courtyard or garden forming a direct part of a building, or a clearly demarcated workplace or, despite requests from the lawful occupants to leave, remains in such a location, is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.

Art. 144 1. Offences against property. / Criminal damage

Criminal damage

1 Any person who damages, destroys or renders unusable property belonging to another or in respect of which another has a right of use is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
Only both commited at the same time would have led to a deportation.
One of the minor cases which was discussed prior to the vote was a youngster breaking into a garden shed or club house. Another case would be a sprayer climbing over a fence and tagging a building. Or a client with hausverbot, comming back and smashing something. Yes, it is not break ins only.
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  #3468  
Old 07.03.2016, 15:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Comparison of Ausschaffungsinitiative, Durchsetzungsinitiative and the implementing of the former.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...rschiede-d.pdf.

I do not think this exists in English.
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  #3469  
Old 07.03.2016, 15:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

While googling around I found the European Sourcebook of Crime and Criminal Justice Statistics 2014.

According to this Switzerland rarely gives custodial sentences for burgary; ca. 13%. So when the AI is in place we will be a nice holiday destination for foreign burglars; if caught they will get a free trip home.
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  #3470  
Old 07.03.2016, 15:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The above is a typical example of the hyperbolic BS that peppered the anti-DSI campaign. As if any foreigner convicted of speeding as described above would be automatically deported. They would not. (But just try explaining that to the haters.)
Well you are right with that. However, having been sentenced for speeding does indeed qualify as a first sentence. Thus if you speed and then commit another crime or offense sanctioned by the DSI in the 2nd part (e.g. trespass plus theft) you get deported. However if you commit the same crimes in inverse order (e.g. trespass plus theft followed by speeding) you don't get deported.

Doesnt' make much sense to me as the two are roughly on the same rung on the seriousness ladder so the seqeunce they're committed in shouldn't matter.
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To wit:

The fact is, deliberately left in place was to be an already existing policy wherein judges can alter (i.e., reduce or eliminate) the "criminal" outcome (and therefore the actual punishment) of a case by considering any mitigating circumstances and conditions — which judges would certainly be expected to continue doing anyway.
That's not the judges' own doing; in fact they are ordered to use descretion by the law itself, the very law the Federal Parliament wrote as base of their work (Strafgesetzbuch article 23 paragraph 2, among others).

If for instance you get somebody killed due to your own negligence you may get sentenced to some punishment.

If however you're the father of the person killed due to your own negligence you will probably go without punishment by the judge because your causing your son's death in and of itself is more punishment already than the law would have you punished with.

That's called using discretion, taking circumstances into consideration.
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  #3471  
Old 07.03.2016, 22:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Can you back that up?...
YOU can(!). Just go back and read the mainstream media / opposition articles about the initiative, then compare that with the initiative as written (rather than as reported by [the mainstream media / opposition]), plus whatever its authors have subsequently stated about its meaning and intent.

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In articles I've read on the subject, it's been clearly and repeatedly established that even minor offences would have qualified for automatic deportation.
Did they back that up? If yes, exactly how?

Exactly which "minor offences" would "qualify for automatic deportation"? And exactly where is this officially documented?

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...Would you have something more to back up this assertion?...
For exactly what "assertion" of mine are you seeking "more back-up"?

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...Otherwise, I'm really going to have to side with the vast bulk of published opinion...
No matter that the "vast bulk of published opinion" is purely that — opinion, contrived without regard to genuine facts, although truth and truthfulness have long — until recently — formed a fundamental pillar in Swiss politics of consensus, something that appears to be a thing of the past.
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  #3472  
Old 07.03.2016, 22:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...That's not the judges' own doing...
I'm not aware that anybody said it was(?).
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  #3473  
Old 07.03.2016, 22:42
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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YOU can(!). Just go back and read the mainstream media / opposition articles about the initiative, then compare that with the initiative as written (rather than as reported by [the mainstream media / opposition]), plus whatever its authors have subsequently stated about its meaning and intent.



Did they back that up? If yes, exactly how?

Exactly which "minor offences" would "qualify for automatic deportation"? And exactly where is this officially documented?



For exactly what "assertion" of mine are you seeking "more back-up"?



No matter that the "vast bulk of published opinion" is purely that — opinion, contrived without regard to genuine facts, although truth and truthfulness have long — until recently — formed a fundamental pillar in Swiss politics of consensus, something that appears to be a thing of the past.
About "Just go back and read the mainstream media / opposition articles about the initiative, then compare that with the initiative as written (rather than as reported by [the mainstream media / opposition]), plus whatever its authors have subsequently stated about its meaning and intent."

I did read these articles and there is nothing that supports your claims of the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters
So you are wrong and must withdraw your claims
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  #3474  
Old 08.03.2016, 10:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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YOU can(!). Just go back and read the mainstream media / opposition articles about the initiative, then compare that with the initiative as written (rather than as reported by [the mainstream media / opposition]), plus whatever its authors have subsequently stated about its meaning and intent.
I don't even have to go that far. In an attempt to 'prove' that claims that minor offences would get someone deported were false, we've actually seen the official list of offences listed. And guess what, it does turn out that one could fall foul of automatic deportation.

Now you can witter all you want about the media, but those are the facts.
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Exactly which "minor offences" would "qualify for automatic deportation"? And exactly where is this officially documented?
Clearly you've not been paying attention.
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For exactly what "assertion" of mine are you seeking "more back-up"?
I quoted it in my previous response to you.
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No matter that the "vast bulk of published opinion" is purely that — opinion, contrived without regard to genuine facts, although truth and truthfulness have long — until recently — formed a fundamental pillar in Swiss politics of consensus, something that appears to be a thing of the past.
Except we have pointed out facts. You, despite talking about facts, have offered none.
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  #3475  
Old 08.03.2016, 11:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I don't even have to go that far. In an attempt to 'prove' that claims that minor offences would get someone deported were false, we've actually seen the official list of offences listed. And guess what, it does turn out that one could fall foul of automatic deportation...
And this "the official list of offences listed" may be viewed by all exactly where?

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...Clearly you've not been paying attention….
Paying attention, yes. Reading Italian, no.

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...I quoted it in my previous response to you...
There's nothing quoted or linked in that post. Just your opinion and questions.

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...Except we have pointed out facts. You, despite talking about facts, have offered none.
So far you've pointed out rather view facts, though you've made numerous unsubstantiated assertions. Perhaps if you would substantiate your own assertions before asking others to "back up" their reluctance to believe them, you'd gain more credibility around here.
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  #3476  
Old 08.03.2016, 12:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And this "the official list of offences listed" may be viewed by all exactly where?.
Here

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  #3477  
Old 08.03.2016, 12:15
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And this "the official list of offences listed" may be viewed by all exactly where?
By going back one page, given I just told you where it was.
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There's nothing quoted or linked in that post. Just your opinion and questions.
I quoted you. As it turned out you would not have gotten deported for a traffic violation, but such a violation would have counted towards the two offences over a ten-year period.
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So far you've pointed out rather view facts, though you've made numerous unsubstantiated assertions. Perhaps if you would substantiate your own assertions before asking others to "back up" their reluctance to believe them, you'd gain more credibility around here.
I have in the last two pages of posts. Cited minor offences that one could be deported for. Perhaps you might read them.

And please back up your own assertions, how minor violations would not have gotten anyone deported, given you've offered absolutely no facts whatsoever, in Italian or any other language.
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  #3478  
Old 08.03.2016, 12:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And this "the official list of offences listed" may be viewed by all exactly where?



Paying attention, yes. Reading Italian, no.



There's nothing quoted or linked in that post. Just your opinion and questions.



So far you've pointed out rather view facts, though you've made numerous unsubstantiated assertions. Perhaps if you would substantiate your own assertions before asking others to "back up" their reluctance to believe them, you'd gain more credibility around here.
"And this "the official list of offences listed" may be viewed by all exactly where?"
You know so very little about this topic I am astounded you feel empowered to make comments!

The "official list of offences" was provided in post 10 of this thread and multiple times since; apologies it is written in the local languages for some obscure reason like "these are the official languages".
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  #3479  
Old 08.03.2016, 12:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The "official list of offences" was provided in post 10 of this thread and multiple times since; apologies it is written in the local languages for some obscure reason like "these are the official languages".
It is post #10 of the other thread (the one which is on-topic).
Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative
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  #3480  
Old 08.03.2016, 12:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It is post #10 of the other thread (the one which is on-topic).
Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative
LOL! Who am I? Where am I? I had a dream!
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