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  #3481  
Old 09.03.2016, 09:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'm not aware that anybody said it was(?).
You and many others are clearly implying that when they criticize the judges for considering circumstances.
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  #3482  
Old 12.03.2016, 15:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'm not aware that anybody said it was(?).
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You and many others are clearly implying that when they criticize the judges for considering circumstances.
Nothing in any of my posts here was meant as an effort on my part to "criticize" any "judges." My merely mentioning judges' having some lattitude in deciding the "criminality" of an act was neither meant to be critical nor lauditory. It's just a matter of legal fact, and for the record, I actually find it to be a good thing, because not every case can be forced into a single one-size-fits-all black-or-white mold.
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  #3483  
Old 12.03.2016, 20:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...I just told you where it was...
It's just as easy to paste a link to the original source as it is to blather about having "just told you" — but you apparently prefer to blather.

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...please back up your own assertions, how minor violations would not have gotten anyone deported, given you've offered absolutely no facts whatsoever...
You seem to be a bit confused: I've made no positive assertions here. I have nothing to prove. It is you who is making a positive assertion, to the effect that minor violations would get someone deported, but YOU haven't supplied unequivocal, unambiguous evidence supporting your assertion — yet YOU presume to demand that I "back up" assertions that I've never made to the contrary.

Does that seem right to you?
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  #3484  
Old 12.03.2016, 20:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It's just as easy to paste a link to the original source as it is to blather about having "just told you" — but you apparently prefer to blather.



You seem to be a bit confused: I've made no positive assertions here. I have nothing to prove. It is you who is making a positive assertion, to the effect that minor violations would get someone deported, but YOU haven't supplied unequivocal, unambiguous evidence supporting your assertion — yet YOU presume to demand that I "back up" assertions that I've never made.

Does that seem right to you?
"minor violations would get someone deported, but YOU haven't supplied unequivocal, unambiguous evidence supporting your assertion" well I suggest , but only as a last resort, you could try reading the actual text of the DSI initiative which clearly provides this unequivocal, unambiguous evidence.
Only available in Swiss official languages which may be a barrier for you?
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  #3485  
Old 12.03.2016, 20:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Nothing in any of my posts here was meant as an effort on my part to "criticize" any "judges." My merely mentioning judges' having some lattitude in deciding the "criminality" of an act was neither meant to be critical nor lauditory. It's just a matter of legal fact, and for the record, I actually find it to be a good thing, because not every case can be forced into a single one-size-fits-all black-or-white mold.
Well that is good.
So you did not support the DSI initiative which limited Judges latitude?
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  #3486  
Old 14.03.2016, 11:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It's just as easy to paste a link to the original source as it is to blather about having "just told you" — but you apparently prefer to blather.
No, I just prefer not to spoon-feed wasters.
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You seem to be a bit confused: I've made no positive assertions here. I have nothing to prove.
Actually you claimed that people were making claims that did not stack up with the facts, and having made that accusation have now ducked and are claiming innocence. So, in language you might better understand; liar, liar, liar, pants on fire.

Well, it turned out that those people were drawing from facts and your claim was hot air, which you would have seen had pressing the back button on the page not have been such a hardship for you.
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  #3487  
Old 14.03.2016, 12:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...Actually you claimed that people were making claims that did not stack up with the facts...
Nope, I just pointed out that unequivocal facts supporting certain claims have yet to appear.

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...Well, it turned out that those people were drawing from facts...
…which still have yet to appear.
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  #3488  
Old 14.03.2016, 12:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Nope, I just pointed out that unequivocal facts supporting certain claims have yet to appear.
You didn't point to any facts, you just claimed there were facts. Nothing else.
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…which still have yet to appear.
They did - the actual text of the DSI initiative. If you don't understand any of the national languages, you can use Google translate to help you.
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Old 14.03.2016, 13:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You didn't point to any facts...
That's correct. I pointed out the absence of facts.

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...you just claimed there were facts...
I did no such thing. Again, I pointed out the absence of facts.

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...If you don't understand any of the national languages, you can use Google translate to help you.
I speak German. I don't need Google translate.
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Old 14.03.2016, 13:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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That's correct. I pointed out the absence of facts.
Actually, you pointed to "hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters" which is a lot more than simply pointing out missing facts, it's making a claim yourself. Without any facts to back up your claim BTW.

Yet facts have been presented and you've yet to even acknowledge them, despite the fact they've been linked to a number of times now.
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I speak German. I don't need Google translate.
Really, and you didn't bother to read the actual text of the DSI initiative where you would have found minor crimes that would result in automatic expulsion, just as had been claimed by the "SVP-haters"?

Between that and your inability to click a link to said text, when presented, I have to ask where's this denial of yours coming from?
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  #3491  
Old 14.03.2016, 13:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed, I indicated precisely that "I encountered a number of folks parroting the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters." That was an anecdotal statement, i.e., I was relating what I personally experienced. I don't make a habit of recording private conversations with other individuals, especially without their permission, so the only thing that "backs up" my anecdotal claim is my own memory. Demanding "facts" to "back up" someone's anecdotal experience isn't particularly reasonable or realistic.

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...facts have been presented and you've yet to even acknowledge them...
Exactly which particular "facts" would those be?

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...you didn't bother to read the actual text of the DSI initiative where you would have found minor crimes that would result in automatic expulsion, just as had been claimed by the "SVP-haters"?...
I've read portions of the text, but didn't see where "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion." So it isn't yet clear to me which "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion" (or exactly whose definition of the term "minor crime" is being applied) — or exactly which section(s) indicate that "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion." And curiously, those persons ostensibly most capable of directly and precisely answering those questions appear less than willing to do so.

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...your inability to click a link to said text...
As I've already said, I've read portions of the text, but apparently I missed the section(s) where "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion." And so far, I've yet to see a citation in this thread of any particular section(s) in the text where it's stated that "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion" — only general references to "the text".
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  #3492  
Old 14.03.2016, 14:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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you didn't bother to read the actual text of the DSI initiative where you would have found minor crimes that would result in automatic expulsion
Sure I did, and I agree with the idea.

However, I don't agree that they are 'minor' crimes.

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  #3493  
Old 14.03.2016, 15:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed, I indicated precisely that "I encountered a number of folks parroting the hyperbolic falsehoods conjured up by the SVP-haters." That was an anecdotal statement, i.e., I was relating what I personally experienced.
So you were complaining about the misinformed personal opinions of others with your own misinformed personal opinion? My apologies; I was under the impression you weren't just spouting Trumpisms. I think we can leave the discussion at that point.
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Exactly which particular "facts" would those be?
They've been posted multiple times at this stage and you appear to be the only one who cannot see them.
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I've read portions of the text, but didn't see where "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion." So it isn't yet clear to me which "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion" (or exactly whose definition of the term "minor crime" is being applied) — or exactly which section(s) indicate that "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion." And curiously, those persons ostensibly most capable of directly and precisely answering those questions appear less than willing to do so.
So you consider someone earning 500 CHF on the black market, while receiving social assistant to have committed a crime serious enough to warrant deportation? Or while under the influence end up in an argument with a train official and find themselves arrested enough?

If you read the actual text of the proposed initiative is is pretty unambiguous that such scenarios and possible.

Please note; no one is suggesting these would not be crimes or should not be punished, but questioning whether deportation would be a proportionate punishment to them. Frankly they are pretty minor crimes for one to be deported automatically.
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As I've already said, I've read portions of the text, but apparently I missed the section(s) where "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion." And so far, I've yet to see a citation in this thread of any particular section(s) in the text where it's stated that "minor crimes would result in automatic expulsion" — only general references to "the text".
Learn to read.
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However, I don't agree that they are 'minor' crimes.
Do you seriously think that it is appriopriate to deport someone for earning 500 CHF on the side on one occasion, because they may have some other minor conviction nine years earlier and are otherwise model citizens?

That's what the automatic nature of the initiative allowed for; completely ridiculous scenarios such as that, which I would be someone horrified if you considered worthy of expulsion.
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  #3494  
Old 14.03.2016, 16:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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...your own misinformed personal opinion...
The only misinformation I'm aware of in connection with this Initiative has not been adopted as my personal opinion.

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...So you consider someone earning 500 CHF on the black market, while receiving social assistant to have committed a crime serious enough to warrant deportation? Or while under the influence end up in an argument with a train official and find themselves arrested enough?...
In exactly which section of the text is a scenario involving "someone earning 500 CHF on the black market, while receiving social assistant [sic]" described as a "crime serious enough to warrant deportation"?

In exactly which section of the text is a scenario involving someone "under the influence end up in an argument with a train official and find themselves arrested" described as a "crime serious enough to warrant deportation"?

On the other hand, willfully scamming the Swiss social benefits system or doing violence or making threats to an authority or official are serious enough to qualify as criminal acts here, and I'm fine with that, especially knowing that judges have the latitude to take into account genuinely mitigating circumstances, thus having the power to prevent automatic deportation when appropriate.

No one will be "automatically" deported now without a court having first considered the details of the case, and no one would have been "automatically" deported had the DSI passed, without a court having first considered the details of the case.

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...Learn to read Italian...
FTFY. And as I've said, I can't read Italian (yet).

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...Do you seriously think that it is appriopriate to deport someone for earning 500 CHF on the side on one occasion, because they may have some other minor conviction nine years earlier and are otherwise model citizens?...
Do you seriously believe the Initiative text says someone would be deported just for "earning 500 CHF on the side on one occasion, because they may have some other minor conviction nine years earlier and are otherwise model citizens"?

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...That's what the automatic nature of the initiative allowed for...
No, that's just the kind of hyperbolic falsehood I complained about in the first place: I just did a quick search, and neither the number "500" nor the word "black market" (in German) appears in the Initiative's text (German version), so your story gives every appearance of being just that: a story invented to falsely exaggerate the effects of the DSI with no factual basis in the Initiative's text at all — not to mention your failure to account for judges' ability to mitigate the "criminal" nature of an act (and therefore its punishment) based on a case's particular circumstances.
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  #3495  
Old 14.03.2016, 17:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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In exactly which section of the text is a scenario involving "someone earning 500 CHF on the black market, while receiving social assistant [sic]" described as a "crime serious enough to warrant deportation"?
9.1.e. Betrug (Art. 146 StGB) im Bereich der Sozialhilfe und der Sozialversicherungen sowie Sozialmissbrauch (Ziff. V.1);
As it would be "willfully scamming the Swiss social benefits system" to earn on the sly while receiving benefits, that means that doing so would qualify as an offence that will trigger deportation.

Similarly getting drunk and having a heated argument with a train conductor could well end up as a charge of "making threats to an authority" - after all, poking someone is legally 'assault'.

That these are acts that deserve punishment, even arrest, I completely agree, but deportation? TBH, you'd have to have had a pretty bad mugging experience in your youth to ascribe to that level of idiocy.
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No one will be "automatically" deported now without a court having first considered the details of the case, and no one would have been "automatically" deported had the DSI passed, without a court having first considered the details of the case.
Actually the whole point of the initiative was to take the consideration of the details of a case out of the hands of a court. Did you miss the memo?
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FTFY. And as I've said, I can't read Italian (yet).
The German version has been posted at least a half dozen times at this stage.
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Do you seriously believe the Initiative text says someone would be deported just for "earning 500 CHF on the side on one occasion, because they may have some other minor conviction nine years earlier and are otherwise model citizens"?
It does. Get convicted of twice over ten years of something that qualifies on that list and you're out. End of.
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No, that's just the kind of hyperbolic falsehood I complained about in the first place: I just did a quick search, and neither the number "500" nor the word "black market" (in German) appears in the Initiative's text (German version), so your story gives every appearance of being just that: a story invented to falsely exaggerate the effects of the DSI with no factual basis in the Initiative's text at all
So no one will ever get deported because the exact details of the crime, down to how much might have been stolen as an exact figure has to be listed? That is probably the most moronic thing I've read in a while.

Tell us, if I were to bring up the scenario of murder of a man named John, would the initiative have to specifically mention him by name before it qualifies?

It takes a special kind of idiot to think that law is codified like that.

TBH, it's pointless arguing further if this is the kind of argument being used. I'm done.
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Old 14.03.2016, 20:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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9.1.e. Betrug (Art. 146 StGB) im Bereich der Sozialhilfe und der Sozialversicherungen sowie Sozialmissbrauch (Ziff. V.1);
...
What you've quoted is from the text. What you've arbitrarily presumed to postulate as hypothetical (and hyperbolic) test cases are just made-up stories, not examples of the intent or spirit of the DSI.

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...Actually the whole point of the initiative was to take the consideration of the details of a case out of the hands of a court. Did you miss the memo?...
No it wasn't, as there was no "memo". SVP folks went out of their way to point out that the judges' "wiggle room" (especially for less serious crimes) would not be affected by the SDI.

(I'd suggest that you cite the "memo" but you'd likely claim it's already been posted here multiple times and you can't be bothered.)

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...The German version has been posted at least a half dozen times at this stage...
Like I said…

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...So no one will ever get deported because the exact details of the crime, down to how much might have been stolen as an exact figure has to be listed? That is probably the most moronic thing I've read in a while...
Again, more hyperbole, bluff and bluster — obviously a popular substitute for an actual argument when none's on hand.

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...It takes a special kind of idiot to think that law is codified like that...
I for one am not impressed by your name-calling and knocking down your own hyperbolic straw-man arguments, as if that were a fair substitute for fact-based reasoning. The latitude judges already have today is exactly what they would have had with the DSI except for the most serious crimes.

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...it's pointless arguing further if this is the kind of argument being used...
...So please stop using them!

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...I'm done.
I'll believe that when I see it.
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  #3497  
Old 16.03.2016, 13:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I just did a quick search, and neither the number "500" nor the word "black market" (in German) appears in the Initiative's text (German version)
It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion, let alone a productive one, with somebody being intentionally dense or trolling.
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Old 16.03.2016, 15:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion, let alone a productive one, with somebody being intentionally dense or trolling.
On the contrary, it seems to me more like being intentionally dense and trolling when someone repeatedly raises an "argument" about an Initiative based on "data" pulled from thin air (e.g., numbers like "500" and/or terms like "black market") rather than from the text of the Initiative itself or the explanations of whoever penned it.

I think you'd likely change your tune if it were me who was dishing up disinformation by way of hyperbolic fabrications instead of challenging them. There's nothing dense or trollish about asking that a debate about an Initiative remain within the context of that Initiative's letter and spirit, rather than allowing unwarranted exaggerations to become the focus instead.
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Old 16.03.2016, 16:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think you'd likely change your tune if it were me who was dishing up disinformation by way of hyperbolic fabrications instead of challenging them. There's nothing dense or trollish about asking that a debate about an Initiative remain within the context of that Initiative's letter and spirit, rather than allowing unwarranted exaggerations to become the focus instead.
Are you able to read and understand German/French/Italian?
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Old 16.03.2016, 16:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Are you able to read and understand German/French/Italian?
German yes, French & Italian no.
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bundesrat, immigration, immigration cap, masseneinwanderung, mei, politics




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