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Old 20.09.2016, 19:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Face saving all round it seems...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...migration.html
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Old 20.09.2016, 20:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Brussels has approved Swiss plans to prioritise local people over foreigners for jobs in an agreement that could pave the way for a British deal on curbing migration.
Easy to approve given the definition of a local.....
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Old 20.09.2016, 20:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Bern asked for a year prolongation of Erasmus, that is for 2017. That's good news for both local and EU candidates.
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Old 20.09.2016, 21:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Easy to approve given the definition of a local.....
Here (ok, the Mail...) it was defined as Swiss Citizen. The next para (ok, it's the Mail still):

Under the plan, Swiss firms would have to prioritise local people on the jobs market. Any vacancies cannot be filled will have to be advertised in the country’s job centres before recruitment is open up to those abroad.

Wonder if that is 'from abroad' or 'applying from a location abroad'. I'd assume the former based on similar global schemes, so Permis B would be back of the queue, I wonder about C holders?
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  #3505  
Old 20.09.2016, 21:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Here (ok, the Mail...) it was defined as Swiss Citizen. The next para (ok, it's the Mail still):

Under the plan, Swiss firms would have to prioritise local people on the jobs market. Any vacancies cannot be filled will have to be advertised in the country’s job centres before recruitment is open up to those abroad.

Wonder if that is 'from abroad' or 'applying from a location abroad'. I'd assume the former based on similar global schemes, so Permis B would be back of the queue, I wonder about C holders?
I assume 'applying from a location abroad' since the objective is to limit immigration; not to deport people living here or to reduce the foreign populatio here.
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Old 21.09.2016, 13:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Wonder if that is 'from abroad' or 'applying from a location abroad'. I'd assume the former based on similar global schemes, so Permis B would be back of the queue, I wonder about C holders?
I think it unlikely that the EU would compromise so far and allow EU citizens living in Switzerland to be discriminated against. The article also uses the term 'local' and avoids mention of 'Swiss' or 'citizens', so I think it's probably safe to say that what they're talking about residents.

This means that Swiss, B, C and even L permit holders would all get preferential treatment.
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Old 21.09.2016, 13:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think it unlikely that the EU would compromise so far and allow EU citizens living in Switzerland to be discriminated against.
Not to discourage anyone here, but on the EU's compromise, the fact that Juncker can come in and solely make such a decision based on what seems to be a mood seem to indicate the EU is all about compromises. It appears to operate on favours rather any particular principle. It appears to already have been compromised a long time ago.
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  #3508  
Old 21.09.2016, 18:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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the fact that Juncker can come in and solely make such a decision based on what seems to be a mood
How do you know this is a fact? Do you know that this had not been all but negotiated by the various diplomats beforehand and he was just announcing the development? Are you party to information not available to the rest of us?
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Old 21.09.2016, 19:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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How do you know this is a fact? Do you know that this had not been all but negotiated by the various diplomats beforehand and he was just announcing the development? Are you party to information not available to the rest of us?
Always substitute the word 'opinion' for 'fact' when read these posts....

What we do know is that each weekday morning there is a series of conference calls in which the various departments of government in each state plus the commission takes part.

We know there is a meeting of all EU Ambassadors each morning at the UN before the day's business begins. And even if they fail to reach a common approach to the issues under discussion, they are at least fully aware of each others position before entering the assembly.

We furthermore know that the central banks of the Euro Group conference with the ECB everyday including weekends!

So the idea of Junker or any of the others for that matter operating in a vacuum is just not true. He has a very good idea of what will be acceptable to the members and what will not.
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Old 21.09.2016, 20:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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How do you know this is a fact? Do you know that this had not been all but negotiated by the various diplomats beforehand and he was just announcing the development? Are you party to information not available to the rest of us?
Whether they held a meeting beforehand or not, the EU makes arbitrary decisions on a case by case basis. Furthermore, they'll reinterpret some article in from places to support an action when those articles were not meant for such use, nor what a member state had believe it meant. Case in point is the use of State Aid land Competition aws to go after Apple's taxes. Or holding one country to austerity measures and not another. It lacks consistency because of the arbitrary decisions. Even Juncker's tone and posture is someone asking to be kowtowed to.
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  #3511  
Old 21.09.2016, 22:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Not to discourage anyone here, but on the EU's compromise, the fact that Juncker can come in and solely make such a decision based on what seems to be a mood seem to indicate the EU is all about compromises. It appears to operate on favours rather any particular principle. It appears to already have been compromised a long time ago.
Juncker did not!

The Mail later updated their news!

Quote "European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker signalled after talks in Zurich on Monday that he could live with the compromise - as long as a joint EU-Swiss commission also signs off."

Source
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  #3512  
Old 21.09.2016, 23:04
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Whether they held a meeting beforehand or not, the EU makes arbitrary decisions on a case by case basis. Furthermore, they'll reinterpret some article in from places to support an action when those articles were not meant for such use, nor what a member state had believe it meant.
What's that got to do with Juncker solely making decisions based on what seems to be a mood? Oh, I see - you changed the subject.
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Case in point is the use of State Aid land Competition aws to go after Apple's taxes. Or holding one country to austerity measures and not another. It lacks consistency because of the arbitrary decisions.
How exactly are they inconsistent, and for that matter, with what?
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Even Juncker's tone and posture is someone asking to be kowtowed to.
Are you sure that's not simply another of your opinions?
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  #3513  
Old 21.09.2016, 23:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Case in point is the use of State Aid land Competition aws to go after Apple's taxes.
And here we go again...

In this particular case the Commission believe that Ireland's tax laws represent unfair competition in the single market, that is there right to challenge them. The Irish government does not agree and the case will now go to the courts. This is normal were there is a disagreement over the interpretation of a law. So now what was your point again????
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  #3514  
Old 22.09.2016, 03:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

If we could go back to the original topic "initiative to limit immigration"

The Swiss government debated the subject yesterday afternoon:

http://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/standa...story/16501984

The article has been translated with Google, feel free to improve it!

The most spectacular of all SVP triumphs burned down last night in the National Council Chamber to a heap of ashes political. Two years ago, on 9 February 2014, voters said by a majority of 50.3 percent yes to mass immigration initiative of the SVP: Immigration should henceforth be controlled by quotas and maximum numbers. Last night, decided the National Council: There will be for citizens of the European Union neither quotas nor quantitative limits. There should be nothing that could somehow interfere with the free movement of persons Agreement.

It was decided only a concept of Political Institutions Committee, which was in the last days as "national priority light" known: Performs a high level of immigration on the labor market problems, then to be reported to the regional employment centers vacancies so that domestic applicants get some advantage. Specifically: Does immigration to exceed certain thresholds, then "can", the Federal introduce a mandatory reporting points. He does not have to be. An application of CVP President Gerhard Pfister, prescribe the mandatory reporting points during the first five years unconditionally, failed with 99 to 90 votes.

The Federal Council "may" decide that positions have been reported.
Anyway, it was Pfister, the otherwise closed anti-SVP front a little muddled in its claims. Most caused a stir his proposal that the Federal Council should take necessary without the consent of the EU "remedies" against immigration. The concept of the Political Institutions Committee provides that the Federal Council should agree in "serious economic or social problems" with the EU on migration restrictions. Pfister and his group considered it in contrast to appear to be unilateral action by a failure of the talks. Thus the idea of ​​the SVP initiative is something rather taken into account. And prior to the reaction of the other side, one should not be afraid. "We call on the Federal Council to the EU determined to occur," said Marco Romano (CVP, TI).

Outside of the SVP CVP not joined so on resonance. "Your proposal is not compatible with the free movement agreement, by definition," held Tiana Moser, the Green Liberal Party leader, Pfister contrary. Its applications ultimately failed with 98 to 93 votes - FDP, BDP, GLP, SP and Green said virtually closed No. Fared no better a request of Zürchers Hans-Peter Portmann, who brought as FDP single mask a slightly modified version of Pfister's proposal.

Success for seasonal employment application

Portmann was the exception yesterday. In general, the party leaders had their staff at the polls under control. The few skeptics contained mostly the voice.

The SVP it was of little use. It was treated almost always in the minority in the central voting block. In one case it was found in the majority again - grotesque where an application, the more contrary to the aim of the initiative. These are the activities launched by Gerhard Pfister "Saisonnier-paragraph" (Pfister himself finds the comparison inappropriate): foreigners who have a residence permit for up to nine months - just like the previous seasonal workers - should be exempt from measures against migration , Pfister wants to classical Kurzaufenthalterbranchen such as tourism provide a service. The plenary followed him with 99 to 92 votes. In vain warned Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga (SP), so would "workarounds" created. And about the issues of the sectors concerned, they said, "to reduce immigration, always hurts. As you might have to get used to it. "

"Mr. architect Fluri»

The plenary discussion proceeded in phases extremely spiteful - had what probably to do with the presence of Swiss Television. Especially Kurt Fluri (FDP, SO), apostrophized in the media as "architect" of the Commission proposal, has been attacked by SVP speakers sharp. SVP Group chairman Adrian Amstutz taunted him at the lectern consistently as "Mr. Fluri star architect". Amstutz castigated the concept of majority as "glossy packaged constitutional breach". Many of his party colleagues complained a blatant disregard of the popular will.

The SVP's opponents denied not in the majority, that the immigration article would hardly reacted. But in the interests of the overall economy of the free movement agreement was just to be preferred.

Protocol To the heated debate in Parliament walked

zuwanderung.tagesanzeiger.ch

(Tages-Anzeiger, Created: 21/09/2016, 23:14)

.

Last edited by Sbrinz; 22.09.2016 at 03:49. Reason: I did not edit the body of text, only above and below it, [underlined].
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Old 22.09.2016, 03:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Wow, that was quite a mouthful to digest.

After one reading i believe it means the following,

1. Free movement of EU people continues, no quotas, no limits

2. EU foreigners, resident here will be given priority for jobs

3. The situation can be reviewed if there is a future problem

4. The SVP initiative to stop the EU free movement has been buried
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Old 22.09.2016, 10:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Wow, that was quite a mouthful to digest.

After one reading i believe it means the following,
1. Free movement of EU people continues, no quotas, no limits
2. EU foreigners, resident here will be given priority for jobs
3. The situation can be reviewed if there is a future problem
4. The SVP initiative to stop the EU free movement has been buried
I think the way it's (not) implemented is a big mistake, it's an invitation for the next Durchsetzungsinitiative.
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Old 22.09.2016, 10:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think the way it's (not) implemented is a big mistake, it's an invitation for the next Durchsetzungsinitiative.
and rightfully so - it's plainly undemocratic
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Old 22.09.2016, 10:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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and rightfully so - it's plainly undemocratic
Daft. Were an initiative passed that stripped Jews of their citizenship blocked, would you complain that this too would be undemocratic?

There are various checks and balances to democracy, even the Swiss model of direct democracy. Proposed initiatives cannot, for example, violate international law or human rights. Even then, there are means by which an initiative deemed not to be in the national interests can be tempered, changed or effectively blocked by the government.

And if that is a problem, there is a very simple and democratic means to make sure your initiative, if passed, gets legislated for without obstacle - elect the party that proposes it to government. That's part of the democratic process too, oddly.

What we're seeing is completely democratic in the Swiss framework. What you're suggesting is a form of direct democracy that does not exist, without any checks and balances, any sanity check, which only a moron would want to exist.
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Old 22.09.2016, 10:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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and rightfully so - it's plainly undemocratic
The idea may be to await a second vote. For instance draw up a counter-proposal to RASA that says international treaties have priority, or something to that amount.
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Old 22.09.2016, 11:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Daft. Were an initiative passed that stripped Jews of their citizenship blocked, would you complain that this too would be undemocratic?

There are various checks and balances to democracy, even the Swiss model of direct democracy. Proposed initiatives cannot, for example, violate international law or human rights. Even then, there are means by which an initiative deemed not to be in the national interests can be tempered, changed or effectively blocked by the government.
Oh, please,, this is not about international law and human rights, its about the EU. The directive was to implement the initiative.

I believe they have a deadline. If they don't do it, they need to resign or get fired.
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