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  #3521  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Daft. Were an initiative passed that stripped Jews of their citizenship blocked, would you complain that this too would be undemocratic?
Of course - I don't like lots of things which others want but that's what democracy is - accepting things when a majority of people feel differently.
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  #3522  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Oh, please,, this is not about international law and human rights, its about the EU. The directive was to implement the initiative.
Oh please, if you're going to respond to my post, do so, don't ignore what I wrote and start talking about something else.

And if you read it you would have noted that even in Swiss democracy there are checks and balances to any directive to implement an initiative.
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Of course - I don't like lots of things which others want but that's what democracy is - accepting things when a majority of people feel differently.
So you would support democratically mandated death camps then? Because if you accept no checks and balances to democracy, that it your position. Which is insane.
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  #3523  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Death camps?

We are talking about controlling immigration!

Not even as close as apples and oranges.

Tom
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  #3524  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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And if you read it you would have noted that even in Swiss democracy there are checks and balances to any directive to implement an initiative.
Part of that check and balance is whether they've followed the constitution and done their job properly. If not, their actions will not be the end of it. Agreeing with each other to usurp Swiss democracy will not suffice.
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  #3525  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Death camps?

We are talking about controlling immigration!
No, parnell was talking about democracy and how any action to circumvent it is undemocratic. So I asked if he were an initiative passed that stripped Jews of their citizenship blocked, would this be undemocratic and he said yes. So logically democratically mandated death camps should not be blocked by this same logic.

It is off topic, but the undemocratic argument is one of those daft lines that's trotted out on a regular basis by those who don't seem to understand how democracy works and why there are limits to it.

In short, take it up with parnell - he's the expert on democracy, after all.
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  #3526  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Part of that check and balance is whether they've followed the constitution and done their job properly.
Part of that check and balance, yes. How about the other parts you're ignoring?
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If not, their actions will not be the end of it.
There's no 'end' to anything in democracy. That's why laws are periodically overturned.
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Old 22.09.2016, 11:48
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Death camps?

We are talking about controlling immigration!

Tom
We are actually talking about a system that calls itself a direct democracy yet "corrects" the results of direct democracy, when it happens to be inconvenient. Ie - expensive.

I agree with the corrections, consider them advantageous for the population here. But would not call it a direct democracy. That term has been used to manipulate and sway the voters.
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  #3528  
Old 22.09.2016, 11:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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We are actually talking about a system that calls itself a direct democracy yet "corrects" the results of direct democracy, when it happens to be inconvenient. Ie - expensive.
Wow - when did that happen?
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  #3529  
Old 22.09.2016, 12:06
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

they are against mass immigration because Switzerland has lost control of its borders,the SVP propagandists are lying.


Army and Police and Grenzwachtkorps are in full command of the borders


English is NOT replacing Swiss languages but French and Latin
languages


immigrants are not taking jobs from Swiss nationals but filling gaps caused by a stagnating population and a growing economy


Some people DISlike Italians and Turks and Arabs and Black Africans and dark South Asians like the Tamils


my perception is that the SVP want to keep Switzerland for "real" German speaking Swiss people and, given the chance, would be all for a good ol' fashioned ethnic cleansing including getting rid of the Romands and the Ticinesi including such Bundesräte while taking over Romandie and Ticino

Last edited by Wollishofener; 22.09.2016 at 13:15.
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  #3530  
Old 22.09.2016, 12:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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they are against mass immigration because Switzerland has lost control of its borders, immigrants are taking jobs from Swiss citizens, English is replacing Swiss languages at Swiss companies, etc etc etc.
I don't think this is anything new, nor do I think English in business is anything to do with the border issues, though, and if they were to revert to "Swiss for the Swiss" and start insisting that they stick with the local languages in business, they will only weaken their place in the marketplace.

Schools are teaching English earlier and earlier, at the expense of other Swiss languages which are taught later in school.

The border issues are entirely a different thing to the globalisation of Swiss industry.
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  #3531  
Old 22.09.2016, 12:21
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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they are against mass immigration because Switzerland has lost control of its borders,
immigrants are taking jobs from Swiss citizens, English is replacing Swiss languages at Swiss companies, etc etc etc.
In fairness, with 30% of the population being non-Swiss, I can understand how immigration can be creating social stresses.
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Some people try to sugar coat it by saying they just don't like muslims or they just don't like Turks, but my perception is that the SVP want to keep Switzerland for "real" Swiss people and, given the chance, would be all for a good ol' fashioned ethnic cleansing.
Eidgenosse. n. Swiss native able to trace themselves to only Swiss great-grandparents; typically no more than four.
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  #3532  
Old 22.09.2016, 12:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The idea may be to await a second vote. For instance draw up a counter-proposal to RASA that says international treaties have priority, or something to that amount.
There already is a counter initiative to the mass immigration one with enough signatures to be a referendum.

There are rumours that the Govt. is trying to block it because if it does not pass then they are in a really difficult situation.
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  #3533  
Old 22.09.2016, 12:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Wow - when did that happen?
Zweitwohnungsinitiative for instance. Not implementing it fully had the support of all parties.

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There already is a counter initiative to the mass immigration one with enough signatures to be a referendum.

There are rumours that the Govt. is trying to block it because if it does not pass then they are in a really difficult situation.
That's why I think there will be a counter-proposal. I seem to remember that the people behind the Initiative have said that they will gladly retreat it if change is enacted that protects the Bilaterale.
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  #3534  
Old 22.09.2016, 12:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Oh, please,, this is not about international law and human rights, its about the EU. The directive was to implement the initiative.

I believe they have a deadline. If they don't do it, they need to resign or get fired.
That is one option but a highly unlikely one.

These are elected politicians; if the populace does not like their decisions then they simply get voted out next time around.

It is called democracy.

The SVP initiative put the Govt. in a very difficult position with respect to the Swiss economy and future financial success.
It was especially difficult as during the campaign for the initiative the SVP clearly lied and said there was no risk to the EU bilaterals.
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  #3535  
Old 22.09.2016, 13:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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In fairness, with 30% of the population being non-Swiss, I can understand how immigration can be creating social stresses.

Eidgenosse. n. Swiss native able to trace themselves to only Swiss great-grandparents; typically no more than four.

EIDGENOSSE is as shown on the identity-card a citizen of the SCHWEIZERISCHE EIDGENOSSENSCHAFT / SWISS CONFEDERATION
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  #3536  
Old 22.09.2016, 13:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Part of that check and balance, yes. How about the other parts you're ignoring?

There's no 'end' to anything in democracy. That's why laws are periodically overturned.
First you change the laws, and then act according to it. People in power should not act contrary to the law, and then change the laws to cover for it.

To be honest, I haven't looked at all the nuances of this one. But this above still applies.
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  #3537  
Old 22.09.2016, 13:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

One statement I read about this was someone declaring "the end of Swiss democracy". I don't see how that would happen unless it those in power transgress it

Quick question- Is the government acting contrary to the Swiss Constitution in any way here?
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  #3538  
Old 22.09.2016, 13:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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One statement I read about this was someone declaring "the end of Swiss democracy". I don't see how that would happen unless it those in power transgress it



Quick question- Is the government acting contrary to the Swiss Constitution in any way here?


I doubt it - but the situation is comparable to that if the Brexit vote were ignored by the U.K. government
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  #3539  
Old 22.09.2016, 14:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I doubt it - but the situation is comparable to that if the Brexit vote were ignored by the U.K. government
You really need to be a constitutional expert to debate this!

The constitutional text requires the Federal Council and Parliament to introduce a new admissions system for foreign nationals within three years that allows Switzerland to control and limit immigration while maintaining its general economic interests.

I assume the Swiss Govt. will claim they will introduce this new system of job priority for Swiss residents which meets the constitutional requirement.

The opposition will claim this is not the constitutional change they expected.

Then I assume the discussion will revolve around how well defined was the wording of the initiative and do the Govt.plans comply.

It is wrong to say that the Swiss Govt. have ignore the referendum; in reality they will implement it in a "creative" way.
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  #3540  
Old 22.09.2016, 14:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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In fairness, with 30% of the population being non-Swiss, I can understand how immigration can be creating social stresses.

Eidgenosse. n. Swiss native able to trace themselves to only Swiss great-grandparents; typically no more than four.
Oh darned, I'm bugg**** then, as Neuchâtel only joined Switzerland in 1848- so I just miss out. Prussian I am then- oh and Huguenot French. I'll go and cry in my Muesli now

Although, perhaps - as my great-great-great grandparents were Bernese (not by choice I can tell you- as they lived in the Jura... but hey ho) - perhaps I'm ok then
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