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English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Swiss politics/news (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/)
-   -   Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/124269-masseneinwanderung-stoppen-initiative-limit-immigration.html)

OSueco 03.09.2011 10:53
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannut (Post 1325505)
I am against all Illegal activity , except when I am doing it :eek:
how is PRO illegal immigration or illegal activities? :rolleyes:

OSueco 03.09.2011 11:18
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaddyG (Post 1325542)
They're basically saying there should be a restriction on uncontrolled immigration. Much like the governments of Britain, France, USA, Germany, Italy etc etc

There is NO LEGAL uncontrolled immigration, this is so much bull...just cheap shots of something that is already working as usual....try to understand...Switzerland is NOT EU, you can not come here and settle without having a job...

the unemployment rate is one of the lowest in europe, and e.g. at my company we have over 100 open positions, and we can't find any Swiss because there aren't any...so where does this leaves us...? tell me what we should do? Is better to outsource to another country?

so no, the foreigners are NOT taken the job from the Swiss, it's a controlled market...if a swiss was available for a position he would get it...

I do not what fantasy world people are living....:confused:

OSueco 03.09.2011 11:24
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeinFranzösisch (Post 1325582)
are because Mexicans and Central Americans are taking the jobs and living on the doll....
...aaaaand...who is giving them the jobs? :confused: :rolleyes:

OSueco 03.09.2011 11:30
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjt (Post 1325552)

Does any one have data on the percent of foreign born living in countries? I feel this is the only way to fairly compare the foreign population among various countries.
OVER 700'000 swiss are living abrod:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_people

nice numbers, 10% of them can't stand it here...:rolleyes::D

Tilia 03.09.2011 11:42
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeinFranzösisch (Post 1325582)
right... "basically". But they are going the extra step to create the aire of paranoia and xenophobia to go with it.

..............

Oh yeah. And all Muslims are still terrorists.

I love paranoia. It's so tasty and stays crunchy in milk.
And all uneducated dark-skinned parents teach their children fear of dogs.....

Mark75 03.09.2011 12:17
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325649)
There is NO LEGAL uncontrolled immigration, this is so much bull...
Immigration from most EU countries is uncontrolled these days. There are no quotas or other restriction for citizens from those countries anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325649)
so no, the foreigners are NOT taken the job from the Swiss, it's a controlled market... if a swiss was available for a position he would get it...
It's not a controlled market as far as (most) EU citizens are concerned. An employer does not have any obligation whatsoever to hire a Swiss citizen instead of EU member citizen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325649)
I do not what fantasy world people are living....:confused:
Same here... :rolleyes:

OSueco 03.09.2011 12:37
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75 (Post 1325680)
Immigration from most EU countries is uncontrolled these days. There are no quotas or other restriction for citizens from those countries anymore.


It's not a controlled market as far as (most) EU citizens are concerned. An employer does not have any obligation whatsoever to hire a Swiss citizen instead of EU member citizen.


Same here... :rolleyes:
Each immigrant who has to work here has to through the process. They can not get an Ausweis without involvement of the Migrationsamt...so it's controlled.

In my case, my company had to prove that there was not somebody available in Switzerland before hiring me...

And yes there a quotas how many Ausweis that can be handed out each year...

I guess a swiss employer would hire the most qualified person...the problem for most companies...there are NOT enough qualified swiss workers...700'000 swiss are living abroad, Swiss women should not educate themselves and work, Swiss do NOT want the "bad" jobs like cleaning and construction...so where does that leave employers?

the unemployment rate is what? 2...3% - it's nothing...

tom tulpe 03.09.2011 12:39
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75 (Post 1325680)
Immigration from most EU countries is uncontrolled these days. There are no quotas or other restriction for citizens from those countries anymore.
No, it's not. Unless you have a job or are self-employed (properly registered and all) or are a dependent of a person who has a job or is self-employed, you cannot stay beyond six months. You even need a permit to work in Switzerland if you live abroad (Grenzganger/frontalier). Quite unlike the EU where you can move anywhere you like simply because you feel like it, and where you can work wherever you bloody like (and someone hires you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325649)
so no, the foreigners are NOT taken the job from the Swiss, it's a controlled market...if a swiss was available for a position he would get it...
Well admittedly not if the foreigner is EU-25. Then again, in official SVP-world, the reason no Swiss apply is because mean employers drive down wages by hiring dirt cheap EU foreigners. (In the real SVP-world, where the party bigwigs are also big(gish) industrialists and entrepreneurs, they happily hire these people and drive wages down for Swiss people. But I digress.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yjt (Post 1325519)
They mention there is a possibility that the right to unlimited residency and social security benefits could be limited which means you could work here for 35 years pay your unemployment benefits and the Swiss will reserve the right to kick you out straight away without giving you any unemployment benefits.
I read that as "any social security payment" i.e. pensions. In other words, you can be kicked out as soon as you stop working. You can still draw on your Swiss pension, but as soon as you are seriously ill, or need permanent care, well it's not going to be Switzerland that's going to provide this.

In other words, we're talking about a possible return of the 1960s Europe "guest worker" model, were you can only stay as long as you are economically useful to the country. Very much like Dubai.

Faltrad 03.09.2011 12:41
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75 (Post 1325680)
It's not a controlled market as far as (most) EU citizens are concerned.
It is self regulated by the market: you get a job, you get in - you don't get a job, you stay out. The poeple voted for that.
SVP/UDC/PPS circus raises the fundamental questions of how often can people change their mind. Any answer acceptable from twice a day to never ever, but politics is about long term lasting effects of actions. When a party uses the system to sabbotage long term planning in politics, getting annoyed it understandible...

Am I the only one finding that the SVP/UDC/PPS lounges initiatives demanding what is actually already in place? Immigration is controlled in this country either by politics or by the market, not forbidden - yes, I do consider "stop immigration" and "forbid immigration" as synonymous. If the SVP/UDC/PPS wants to change something, the question to be asked the people is not "controlling" but "forbidding" immigration. If Swiss voters want to build a wall around the country, so be it... but we'll only know if the poeple is actually asked the question without euphemisms.

marton 03.09.2011 12:54
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjt (Post 1325552)
I've just had a quick read the arguments they have and what I said about social security is apparently not true. They say you will only have the right to this benefits after a certain number of years.

I still find the explanations relatively vague and some what contradictory. For example above they don't define how many years this should be. They also want to limit the amount of asylum seekers Switzerland accepts yet they say no legitimate asylum seeker will be turned away. They say they're mainly talking about people who get refused asylum but for what ever reason can't be returned to their home country. I don't see how they can guarantee that no ligit asylum seeker will be turned away if they have a limit on how many they are prepared to take. The problems with those who are left in limbo surely needs to be resolved through other means?

That the SVP wishes to control which foreigners are let in is I suppose understandable. What I don't like though are these vague initiatives which leave out all the relevant details so you have no idea what the law will look like. I mean we still don't know what crimes are punishable with expulsion.

It's also all very well talking about how the foreigner proportion is one of the highest in the western world but here the naturalisation criteria is also one of the toughest in the western world.

Does any one have data on the percent of foreign born living in countries? I feel this is the only way to fairly compare the foreign population among various countries.
About "What I don't like though are these vague initiatives which leave out all the relevant details so you have no idea what the law will look like."

As someone already wrote, this is of course deliberate so if the referendum is successful the SVP can complain about the poor guys who have the task to turn it into law; for example, the current status of the referendum about expelling foreign criminals.

yjt 03.09.2011 13:16
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marton (Post 1325709)
About "What I don't like though are these vague initiatives which leave out all the relevant details so you have no idea what the law will look like."

As someone already wrote, this is of course deliberate so if the referendum is successful the SVP can complain about the poor guys who have the task to turn it into law; for example, the current status of the referendum about expelling foreign criminals.

Yep I know why this is and It really annoys me.

Anyway I found a link (sorry I lost it) saying 20% of the population is foreign born which is still one of the highest in the world. I find it a bit unfair though to compare tiny Switzerland with hugh countries like USA and the UK which has lots of space . As Switzerland punches well above its weight economically I thought I'd compare it to some of the worlds other economical centres.

Well California has 26.8% foreign born citzens, New York 21% In New york city alone. 40% are foreigners

In 2001 32% of Londoners were born outside of the UK

Toronto has 46% foreigners

UAE has 70% foreigners and signapore 43%

It seems to me if you want to be economically successful you need to accept that you'll have a high foreigner percentage. The smaller the country the higher the need for foreigners

Mark75 03.09.2011 13:24
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325691)
Each immigrant who has to work here has to through the process. They can not get an Ausweis without involvement of the Migrationsamt...so it's controlled.
That's right but there is no more limit on the number of EU citizens who can move to Switzerland for work. (Well, technically it's limited by the number of available jobs, but there is no legal limit.)
It depends on how you define 'controlled', I guess. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325691)
In my case, my company had to prove that there was not somebody available in Switzerland before hiring me...
Well, maybe back then, but that's clearly not the case anymore for EU citizens. Every employer can hire EU citizens as he pleases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325691)
And yes there a quotas how many Ausweis that can be handed out each year...
There are no more quotas for most EU countries. (Exceptions being Bulgaria and Romania IIRC.)

Laertes 03.09.2011 13:36
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
In my opinion all this talk about ending the Schengen agreement is just cheap political advertising. The SVP knows very well that this would be the end of the Bilateral agreements between Switzerland and the EU. And this would be the fast track into EU. Switzerland probably would be a member of EU within 5 years or even less.

I think SVP does only fight against the Bilateral agreements because they know, that they will not succeed (Swiss people always supported the "bilateral way" in popular votes by a clear majority). If they would succeed Switzerland only option remaining would be to enter the EU immediately.

Guest 03.09.2011 13:54
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Near here in La Chaux-de-Fonds, some of the posters have been altered thus:

STOPPER
LA XENOPHOBIE MASSIVE

Brilliant:)

The most worrying aspect of the SVP/UDC style campaign, is that it is stifling any sensible and necessary discussion and debate about immigration. Those 70% in CH who do not approve of the SVP/UDC tactics and agenda (including me and the majority of my friends) are so embarrassed and ashamed of the posters, adverts, etc- that the topic has become taboo. Which is counter-productive. Their extreme views result in extreme 'anti SVP/UDC'- not healthy nor helpful.

yjt 03.09.2011 14:05
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Near here in La Chaux-de-Fonds, some of the posters have been altered thus:

STOPPER
LA XENOPHOBIE MASSIVE

Brilliant:)

The most worrying aspect of the SVP/UDC style campaign, is that it is stifling any sensible and necessary discussion and debate about immigration. Those 70% in CH who do not approve of the SVP/UDC tactics and agenda, are so embarrassed and ashamed of the posters, adverts, etc- that the topic has become taboo. Which is counter-productive. Their extreme views result in extreme 'anti SVP/UDC'- not healthy nor helpful.

I agree. This is my biggest criticism of the SVP. Instead of constructively making solutions to some of the problems they talk about the make suggestions which could have come from a 6 year old. If there's to many foreigners. Stop them. Simples.

Again the example of the asylum seekers. They say their gripe is not with ligit asylum seekers but rather economic refugees and the fake ones. Apparently many of the asylum seekers get turned down but for whatever reason they can't be sent back. It's not like Switzerland wants to have them, they just don't know what to do with them as they can't just chuck them over their country of origin with a parachute.

I would much rather the SVP make constructive suggestions on how to deal with this problem rather than wanting the country to disregard basic human rights

cannut 03.09.2011 14:52
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325649)
There is NO LEGAL uncontrolled immigration, this is so much bull...just cheap shots of something that is already working as usual....try to understand...Switzerland is NOT EU, you can not come here and settle without having a job...

the unemployment rate is one of the lowest in europe, and e.g. at my company we have over 100 open positions, and we can't find any Swiss because there aren't any...so where does this leaves us...? tell me what we should do? Is better to outsource to another country?

so no, the foreigners are NOT taken the job from the Swiss, it's a controlled market...if a swiss was available for a position he would get it...

I do not what fantasy world people are living....:confused:
Good Thinking ,problem solved :msnnerd:>>>>>>>>> some one please give me some idea how much the population in Switzerland should be? 80 million and up ? in my opinion there are already to many people in Switzerland

KeinFranzösisch 03.09.2011 14:53
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yjt (Post 1325556)
They'd also like to have a probation period for naturalised Swiss.
12 years of residency isn't enough probation?

OSueco 03.09.2011 15:00
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
The biggest problem with this initiative is not the issue itself, it should be discussed, the problem is SVP has no "solution" they only do it to get votes...very simple...SVP don't contribute with anything, just crying about everything...

I think most of us understand these issues, it's getting crowded, but instead of focusing on cause-effect, i.e.

1. why is it like this? Who is to "blame"? It's certainly not the legal foreigners, they are let in by A. the Swiss government AND B. the Swiss companies. The Swiss are hiring us, the Swiss are setting our salaries...so selber schuld!

2. What is the solution? Is it a long or short term "problem"? Do Switzerland need to focus on the women? Easier for mothers to work? Equal salaries? Get women to study? All of which SVP don't want...

Foreigners are very attractive for Switzerland, you get a person who has experience AND has ended his/her education...

yjt 03.09.2011 15:02
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeinFranzösisch (Post 1325812)
12 years of residency isn't enough probation?
Apparently not. At the start of the year the said they were having a think about launching an initiative which would mean naturalised Swiss would lose the Swiss pass if they mess up within a certain amount of time http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/30302904

cannut 03.09.2011 15:03
Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1325815)
The biggest problem with this initiative is not the issue itself, it should be discussed, the problem is SVP has no "solution" they only do it to get votes...very simple...SVP don't contribute with anything, just crying about everything...

I think most of us understand these issues, it's getting crowded, but instead of focusing on cause-effect, i.e.

1. why is it like this? Who is to "blame"? It's certainly not the legal foreigners, they are let in by A. the Swiss government AND B. the Swiss companies. The Swiss are hiring us, the Swiss are setting our salaries...so selber schuld!

2. What is the solution? Is it a long or short term "problem"? Do Switzerland need to focus on the women? Easier for mothers to work? Equal salaries? Get women to study? All of which SVP don't want...

Foreigners are very attractive for Switzerland, you get a person who has experience AND has ended his/her education...
Lots of woman in India ,ship the jobs there;)


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