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Old 01.02.2014, 14:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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This is what I keep seeing from people opposed to the initiative on this thread - on the one hand they scream bloody-murder if the initiative passes due to all the supposed horrible changes associated with it, and on the other hand scoff it off with an attitude that it will bring no change.

Not unconditionally!


Agreed, some EU nations are doing ok - such as Austria - but if your going to try to tell me that in general the general economy of the EU is doing swimmingly fantastic and that things are better now for the average man/woman on the street, your going to have to try harder then that! Unemployment alone throughout the EU Member States has continued to rise for years now to where it's sits at over 10% currently.

So it's not "if" then, but "when" ... I agree with you there.
I hope its as rosy as you depict it to be ...

That was meant more as a "lets go down the darkest hole we can imagine" - more of a joke than anything serious. In fact I think France has more around only 10% Muslim population ..

No, I don't believe so. AFAIK, much of the current immigration policy/permit policy is left up to the immigrants to have the honour to uphold. Isn't it true that someone from any EU/EFTA country can enter Swiss soil without any checks on permits or work/study etc !? That's as far as I understand it to be ... they can come onto Swiss soil without any checks. So then they are in Switzerland .. no permit for up to 14 days is required by law .. and then after 14 days it's completely up to them whether or not they will apply for a permit right!? I mean where are all the immigration police who are going around checking everyone to see if they are Swiss or not - and if not if they have the right paperwork etc ... and how is there any way to know if you have been in Switzerland for more than 14 days because upon entry no passports are stamped etc ... !? So theoretically you can basically come in, remain in Switzerland indefinitely without ever bothering to get a permit, and then leave whenever you wish - because there are no check on exiting either ... right!?

So where exactly is this "line" you speak of!?

Your right - it's not "never-ending" - but when it does end it will not be with a prosperous and strong Switzerland in existence - not the way i see it anyhow!

Your misrepresenting what I said - and I think you are fully aware of that!


If you don't know what Switzerland's identity is, or has been, then there is no point me telling you. It's pretty obvious to most Swiss me thinks. It's a sad day when the people of a nation no longer have an identity.
About "No, I don't believe so. AFAIK, much of the current immigration policy/permit policy is left up to the immigrants to have the honour to uphold. Isn't it true that someone from any EU/EFTA country can enter Swiss soil without any checks on permits or work/study etc !? That's as far as I understand it to be ... they can come onto Swiss soil without any checks. So then they are in Switzerland .. no permit for up to 14 days is required by law .. and then after 14 days it's completely up to them whether or not they will apply for a permit right!? I mean where are all the immigration police who are going around checking everyone to see if they are Swiss or not - and if not if they have the right paperwork etc ... and how is there any way to know if you have been in Switzerland for more than 14 days because upon entry no passports are stamped etc ... !? So theoretically you can basically come in, remain in Switzerland indefinitely without ever bothering to get a permit, and then leave whenever you wish - because there are no check on exiting either ... right!?"

Same boring question - how will this initiative change any of that - please point to the relevant sentences in the SVP document?

BTW it is not 14 days; it is 90.

I am beginning to suspect you can't read German?
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  #502  
Old 01.02.2014, 14:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I think there is another interesting (at least to me) point to be made regarding almost unrestricted and unregulated immigration in Switzerland:

As more immigrants settle in Switzerland, to the current tune of 80'000 annually, the infrastructure must expand to meet the demand. Public transport, health care, housing, roads, administration-related services, police and security ... etc .... and in order for this expansion to take place it can only mean that even more immigrants will enter Switzerland to fill the demands of all the above ... which will in turn put even more strain on the infrastructure and thus place greater demands ... and thus more immigrants flood into the country ...

This vicious cycle continues until Switzerland is no better a place to work than the countries where all these immigrants come from! And what ultimate purpose did the whole "experiment" serve to the Swiss people and to the Swiss nation!?

... in the end it is inevitable that Switzerland's economy lay in ruins, it's once green and calm countrysides littered with apartment blocks, it's once excellent public transport systems under-financed and sold off to foreign firms, and cost-cutting measures are the name of the game throughout the public services sector.

Switzerland would no longer be Switzerland, but would be indistinguishable from any other part of Europe (by this time France would likely carry a predominantly Muslim population - so what the heck) and the Swiss economy will have been nothing but a gold rush for the rest of Europe to lay into.

Where does Switzerland draw the line?

I don't see a never-ending increase of immigrants into this country as a good thing! For economic reasons and neither for cultural reasons.

If Switzerland is to remain Swiss, and not become some kind of generic, multi-cultural state (like France, Germany and the UK are becoming - And their economies are so rock-solid - right!?) then we, the Swiss people, will have to pull the brakes at some point.

Some call this nationalism as if being nationalistic is a bad thing - some call it "conservative" and "right-wing" - some call it "Cold-War" mentality - while others just say it's from "the past".

I call it sovereignty and the protection of a people and a nation's identity and prosperity!
About "If Switzerland is to remain Swiss, and not become some kind of generic, multi-cultural state"

Switzerland is composed of four different native cultural groups; French, German, Italian and Romansh plus 23% of the population are defined as foreigners by the Bureau of Statistics - and you think Switzerland is not multi-cultural today! For example, you try going to the French part and telling them they have the same cultural values as the German part.

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Old 01.02.2014, 15:04
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Ok then ... but where did you find the statistics of 80'000+ immigrants for the year 2013?
Found this in English in case you don't read German

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=37756838
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  #504  
Old 01.02.2014, 15:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "If Switzerland is to remain Swiss, and not become some kind of generic, multi-cultural state"

Switzerland is composed of four different native cultural groups; French, German, Italian and Romansh plus 23% of the population are defined as foreigners by the Bureau of Statistics - and you think Switzerland is not multi-cultural today! For example, you try going to the French part and telling them they have the same cultural values as the German part.

Ok, so there may be a change, small as it may be, domesticly in Switzerland betwenn the four native groups.
How does that compare at all to the multiculturalism that EAB is referring too?
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  #505  
Old 01.02.2014, 15:11
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Just think of how low the unemployment rate would have been had it not been for those "80+K newcomers" .... !
According to this study these newcomers generated more work and reduced the unemployment rate for residents!
Without them the unemployment rate would be higher.

http://www.kof.ethz.ch/de/publikatio...ng-papers/335/
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Old 01.02.2014, 15:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Ok, so there may be a change, small as it may be, domesticly in Switzerland betwenn the four native groups.
How does that compare at all to the multiculturalism that EAB is referring too?
About "Ok, so there may be a change, small as it may be, domesticly in Switzerland betwenn the four native groups. "

Small change?? You have never lived in the different parts of Switzerland have you?

I have a colleague from Romansh who as a young man decided to move from the farm to the city. He got to Zürich where he did not speak the language and spent 3 months living rough learning the language before he could get a job.

One common Swiss identity - comedy hour again....
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Old 01.02.2014, 16:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "Ok, so there may be a change, small as it may be, domesticly in Switzerland betwenn the four native groups. "

Small change?? You have never lived in the different parts of Switzerland have you?

I have a colleague from Romansh who as a young man decided to move from the farm to the city. He got to Zürich where he did not speak the language and spent 3 months living rough learning the language before he could get a job.

One common Swiss identity - comedy hour again....
So there was a language change.. I wouldn't personally call that in itself a big change in culture.
However, if you had actually read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I wrote "may" not is!
Are you a native English speaker?
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  #508  
Old 01.02.2014, 16:15
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "No, I don't believe so. AFAIK, much of the current immigration policy/permit policy is left up to the immigrants to have the honour to uphold. Isn't it true that someone from any EU/EFTA country can enter Swiss soil without any checks on permits or work/study etc !? That's as far as I understand it to be ... they can come onto Swiss soil without any checks. So then they are in Switzerland .. no permit for up to 14 days is required by law .. and then after 14 days it's completely up to them whether or not they will apply for a permit right!? I mean where are all the immigration police who are going around checking everyone to see if they are Swiss or not - and if not if they have the right paperwork etc ... and how is there any way to know if you have been in Switzerland for more than 14 days because upon entry no passports are stamped etc ... !? So theoretically you can basically come in, remain in Switzerland indefinitely without ever bothering to get a permit, and then leave whenever you wish - because there are no check on exiting either ... right!?"

Same boring question - how will this initiative change any of that - please point to the relevant sentences in the SVP document?

BTW it is not 14 days; it is 90.

I am beginning to suspect you can't read German?
I was referring to this: Gainful employment of more than 3 months:
Within 14 days of their arrival and before actually taking up work, nationals of EU-25/EFTA states have to register with the local authorities at their place of stay and apply for a residence permit. https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...08.html#a_0008

Nothing boring about what I said about the so-called "line" which is claimed to currently exist!

Last edited by EAB; 01.02.2014 at 18:38.
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Old 01.02.2014, 16:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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About "If Switzerland is to remain Swiss, and not become some kind of generic, multi-cultural state"

Switzerland is composed of four different native cultural groups; French, German, Italian and Romansh plus 23% of the population are defined as foreigners by the Bureau of Statistics - and you think Switzerland is not multi-cultural today! For example, you try going to the French part and telling them they have the same cultural values as the German part.

Besides your reply being completely out of context to what I obviously meant, even though we may have 4 distinct languages and peoples, and even though this multicultural, it is all Swiss and is not generic. But you already knew that ...
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Old 01.02.2014, 16:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Besides your reply being completely out of context to what I obviously meant, even though we may have 4 distinct languages and peoples, and even though this multicultural, it is all Swiss and is not generic. But you already knew that ...
You realise this all of this master race stuff died a death in 1945?

I wish you a relaxing Saturday afternoon.


Ä gruess us Düütschland!


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  #511  
Old 01.02.2014, 17:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Besides your reply being completely out of context to what I obviously meant, even though we may have 4 distinct languages and peoples, and even though this multicultural, it is all Swiss and is not generic. But you already knew that ...
Ah so your multicultural comments were racial?
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Old 01.02.2014, 17:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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So there was a language change.. I wouldn't personally call that in itself a big change in culture.
However, if you had actually read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I wrote "may" not is!
Are you a native English speaker?
About "Are you a native English speaker?"

If I was I might detect a Freudian slip in your choice of EF name
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Old 01.02.2014, 17:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

We are veering off-course again, guys. Please keep it on-topic and avoid personal insults. Thanks.
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Old 01.02.2014, 17:42
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Not you !You are OK, but all the other American / Canadian / Mexican/Portuguese/Spaniards--one sec I have to go to the bath room
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Old 01.02.2014, 17:44
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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"work force dwindles"!? Why would it "dwindle"? There is no issue with people immigrating to Switzerland to work.
so whats the issue then? the vast majority is coming here to work...
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Old 01.02.2014, 18:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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Found this in English in case you don't read German

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=37756838
I take it you are referring to the following:

“In 2013, around 85,000 people came to settle in Switzerland, a number equivalent to the population of the city of Lucerne,” says Guy Parmelin, a People’s Party member of parliament. “To meet that kind of demand, we would have to build between 30,000 and 35,000 new housing units each year. The pressure is enormous.”

While this may be true it is not an official statistic. Do you have anything else?
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Old 01.02.2014, 18:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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so whats the issue then? the vast majority is coming here to work...
As I have already said before:

"AFAIK, much of the current immigration policy/permit policy is left up to the immigrants to have the honour to uphold. Isn't it true that someone from any EU/EFTA country can enter Swiss soil without any checks on permits or work/study etc !? That's as far as I understand it to be ... they can come onto Swiss soil without any checks. So then they are in Switzerland .. no permit for up to 14 days is required by law .. and then after 14 days it's completely up to them whether or not they will apply for a permit right!? I mean where are all the immigration police who are going around checking everyone to see if they are Swiss or not - and if not if they have the right paperwork etc ... and how is there any way to know if you have been in Switzerland for more than 14 days because upon entry no passports are stamped etc ... !? So theoretically you can basically come in, remain in Switzerland indefinitely without ever bothering to get a permit, and then leave whenever you wish - because there are no check on exiting either ... right!?"

The problem is that the current "line" that exists today is a total joke!
So again I will say, "There is no issue with people immigrating to Switzerland to work."
Do all people who enter Switzerland actually find work? - No, of course not.
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Old 01.02.2014, 19:17
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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"work force dwindles"!? Why would it "dwindle"? There is no issue with people immigrating to Switzerland to work.

Can you explain how this initiative would suddenly cause the "work force to dwindle"!?
So obviously you really don't understand what the issue is!!! If our companies can not compete on the same basis as other European companies in the market place, what do you think is going to happen when they start to loose business.... Do you think that they will keep paying salaries to people? And so tax revenue drops... how do we make up the shortfall...

Have you looked at your own employment situation, your neighbour's situation... are you so insulated for foreign trade that you can be sure that it will not impact you???

The bi-laterals are interwoven, if you break one, you break them all. And if that happens we will be at the end of queue when it comes to trading with the EU, behind pretty much every other state in the world. Do you really thing we can compete on price and still earn the good living we do???

The whole SVP proposal is based on the assumption that we can break one part of the agreement and that the 450m people of the EU will be happy to continue an agreement that is to their disadvantage! The biggest difference between now and when we got the bi-laterals is that the EU parliament did not have to agree to them, now it does and since it is an elected parliament just like any national parliament, you can expect it's members will act in the best interests of it's electorate.

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The Lisbon Treaty, in effect, gives the EP veto authority over the vast majority of EU legislation and a greater say over the EU’s budget. In addition, the Lisbon Treaty gives the EP the right to approve or reject all international agreements by a simple majority and expands the EP’s decision-making authority over trade-related issues.
The SVP has not plan for dealing with the fall out, other than to say it will not happen!

Yes we have issues to deal with, but jumping blindly off the cliff is not the solution.
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Old 01.02.2014, 19:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I think there is another interesting (at least to me) point to be made regarding almost unrestricted and unregulated immigration in Switzerland
I didn't read further because you shoot yourself in the foot: at no point of history there was, there is or has been unrestricted and unregulated immigration in Switzerland. Not even "almost".
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Old 01.02.2014, 19:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen

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I didn't read further
Then save yourself the trouble and don't bother replying.
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