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-   -   Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/124269-masseneinwanderung-stoppen-initiative-limit-immigration.html)

cannut 05.09.2011 02:47

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 22 yards (Post 1327076)
I'm not sure I get your point. The population density of Manhattan is 27,394/square km, which would place it first (by a country mile) in the list of most densely populated countries in the world ... if it were a country. But it's not, it's a densely-populated area within the world's 179th most densely populated nation.

There's plenty of space in Switzerland. Commuting times to work here are extraordinarily low, by some standards -- when I lived in London, or Sydney, commutes of an hour or more each way were commonplace.

This is the whole point of stop the mass immigration ,not wanting to live in dense populated area like Manhattan:)

schutsim 05.09.2011 03:28

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerallie (Post 1325482)
Interesting.....the first line from the website talks about a stabbing and crime. Are they using crime as a smoke screen for a hidden agenda to get rid of us all?

Not exactly a hidden agenda seen all the years SVP polemics win the votes.

Guest 05.09.2011 09:31

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
The SVP, being a populist party, doesn't surprise me much anymore. But the apparent hypocrisy of figurehead Blocher is interesting. As a businessman cheap, flexible labor was cherished. As a politician, it is an invasion.

Read this from 2000: http://www.economist.com/node/318248

Most experts argue immigration now in Switzerland is nowhere near levels seen during the Kosovo crisis, though the rhetoric is just as fierce. As with anything, it seems the battle of public opinion has handily been won with colorful ad campaigns and alarmist rhetoric, as opposed to any remote representation of reality.

Assassin 05.09.2011 10:06

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Good job that we get to vote for real in Switzerland rather than having to listen to the constant whinging drone on identical EF threads. Anyone would think that Martial Law had been introduced by the way some of you oppressed writers have been scribbling.

The typically centrist voters of the Vaudoise yesterday clearly rejected plans to allow foreigners to vote on cantonal matters.

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/18832654

The Vaudoise is not exactly known to be an SVP stronghold of the nation, it's people wanting to uphold the sovereignty and traditional values of their country, nothing more or less.

I have to ask myself again and again, if you move to Switzerland for whatever reason, why do you think that you have some god given right to suddenly vote as if you were at home? This is a conservative nation, liberal in many aspects, but decidedly slow in adopting radical changes, our political system ensures that no one party can force through their individual manifestos. Which other country could boast a ruling executive of seven members who often have to campaign for issues against their own political ideals? It happens here regularly.

If you think that the BDP / FDP / SVP or EVP have some direct influence on your way of life, then by all means go ahead and tell the readers how, but this generic whine smacks of self-created xenophobic hypochondria.

VonDutch 05.09.2011 10:34

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1327141)
Good job that we get to vote for real in Switzerland rather than having to listen to the constant whinging drone on identical EF threads. Anyone would think that Martial Law had been introduced by the way some of you oppressed writers have been scribbling.

The typically centrist voters of the Vaudoise yesterday clearly rejected plans to allow foreigners to vote on cantonal matters.

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/18832654

The Vaudoise is not exactly known to be an SVP stronghold of the nation, it's people wanting to uphold the sovereignty and traditional values of their country, nothing more or less.

I have to ask myself again and again, if you move to Switzerland for whatever reason, why do you think that you have some god given right to suddenly vote as if you were at home? This is a conservative nation, liberal in many aspects, but decidedly slow in adopting radical changes, our political system ensures that no one party can force through their individual manifestos. Which other country could boast a ruling executive of seven members who often have to campaign for issues against their own political ideals? It happens here regularly.

If you think that the BDP / FDP / SVP or EVP have some direct influence on your way of life, then by all means go ahead and tell the readers how, but this generic whine smacks of self-created xenophobic hypochondria.

In a canton such as Vaud where quite a big part of the population is now not-swiss, in my opinion it would make sense to allow those people to vote on issues that most of the time also concern them. At least on a local community level. Given how difficult it is and how long it takes to obtain a swiss passport, you are really excluding a lot of people of a say in what is happening in their life. I believe that when allowed to vote, the foreigners would get much more involved in daily life here, because they actually have a say in it too. Now, you are creating a divide between the people with the power to decide and the people that just have to accept whatever laws are imposed on them. Extrapolate the immigration a little bit, add some children born here and in 30 years you have only a minority who is allowed to vote, surely not a democratic principle... And, of course, if i don't like it here I can leave again, but that definitely also gives me an attitude where I do not care so much about what happens here, and it makes me feel like a passer-by. Not someone who will stay here for any longer period of time. It is exactly this attitude that immigrants in other European countries often had/have, where immigration started in the 1960s. The feeling that they are not citzens of those countries, but rather guests/visitors. This has led to them not feeling the need to adapt to culture of the country where they live. Later you then get problems with their children who are not from either country, being born in one and brought up as if they were from another...

I think that as slow and conservative as Switzerland may be in changing, it needs to adapt and move on in this case. These problems do not go away if you wait long enough, they will only get worse. Look at the development in many EU countries (my own once open and tolerate heaven of freedom being a particularly sad example...:msnblush:) where right wing extremist parties gain more and more influence, because the problems of what happens to immigrants after they decide to stay in the country have been ignored for 40 years.

As for not being allowed to vote here in Vaud, I do not mind it, exactly because the majority of people here seem to vote in a similar way as I do, and many of the posters to "stop the massive immigration" have been "modified" by locals who do not seem to agree with its message so much ;)

Guest 05.09.2011 11:08

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
A similar initiative was passed in Jura and is effective now. The demise yesterday in Vaud was certainly due to the fact that not only would foreigners be able to vote at Cantonal level (after 10 years in CH, and 3 years in Vaud)- but would have been legible for elections. The concern was that certain groups could 'highjack' the legislative process.

It seems to me that if someone has lived here for more than 10 years and would like to participate in the voting process, then perhaps taking Swiss nationality would be a good way to go about it. One of the stumbling blocks here is that many countries do not allow dual nationality, so those wanting to become Swiss would have to give up their own nationality. I was very happy to take on British nationality, but would have not likes to do so had I had to choose. Same for my OH taking Swiss nationality recently.

PaddyG 05.09.2011 11:36

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

A similar initiative was passed in Jura and is effective now. The demise yesterday in Vaud was certainly due to the fact that not only would foreigners be able to vote at Cantonal level (after 10 years in CH, and 3 years in Vaud)- but would have been legible for elections. The concern was that certain groups could 'highjack' the legislative process.
I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. One of the initiative proponents said in retrospect is was probably too much, too soon. If they had simply proposed voting at the contonal level, it may well have passed.

Karl 05.09.2011 12:29

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
In case no one read the news recently, as of May 1, 2011, citizens of the so-called "EU-8" countries...Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, now have full rights to move to Switzerland and look for employment.

That's a combined population of over 73 Million people, many of whom are living in economically depressed countries where unemployment is high, taxes are high, and pay is a small fraction of what can be earned in Switzerland for the same job (and would likely be willing to accept lower pay here just to get in).

This all happened in one fell swoop on May 1st of this year.

Jaro 05.09.2011 12:37

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1327298)
In case no one read the news recently, as of May 1, 2011, citizens of the so-called "EU-8" countries...Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, now have full rights to move to Switzerland and look for employment.

That's a combined population of over 73 Million people, many of whom are living in economically depressed countries where unemployment is high, taxes are high, and pay is a small fraction of what can be earned in Switzerland for the same job (and would likely be willing to accept lower pay here just to get in).

This all happened in one fell swoop on May 1st of this year.


so are you saying SVP should concentrate their discriminatory and xenophobic message at the EU-8 citizens? Last I checked the UK, SE, IE and few other countries who opened their borders to the EU newcomers benefited greatly from the influx of hard working and mostly well educated immigrants. DE, CH and AT who decided to keep them out did not do so well and are rather surprised that the masses did "invade" their precious little countries as they feared. In fact, DE economy is suffering from lack of willing to work people.

Karl 05.09.2011 12:49

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaro (Post 1327303)
so are you saying SVP should concentrate their discriminatory and xenophobic message at the EU-8 citizens? Last I checked the UK, SE, IE and few other countries who opened their borders to the EU newcomers benefited greatly from the influx of hard working and mostly well educated immigrants. DE, CH and AT who decided to keep them out did not do so well and are rather surprised that the masses did "invade" their precious little countries as they feared. In fact, DE economy is suffering from lack of willing to work people.

I am not saying anything. I simply stated a fact.

PaddyG 05.09.2011 12:54

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaro (Post 1327303)
so are you saying SVP should concentrate their discriminatory and xenophobic message at the EU-8 citizens? Last I checked the UK, SE, IE and few other countries who opened their borders to the EU newcomers benefited greatly from the influx of hard working and mostly well educated immigrants. DE, CH and AT who decided to keep them out did not do so well and are rather surprised that the masses did "invade" their precious little countries as they feared. In fact, DE economy is suffering from lack of willing to work people.

Erm, you think the UK and Irish economies are flourishing? Where have you been the last year or so?

marton 05.09.2011 12:54

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1327298)
In case no one read the news recently, as of May 1, 2011, citizens of the so-called "EU-8" countries...Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, now have full rights to move to Switzerland and look for employment.

That's a combined population of over 73 Million people, many of whom are living in economically depressed countries where unemployment is high, taxes are high, and pay is a small fraction of what can be earned in Switzerland for the same job (and would likely be willing to accept lower pay here just to get in).

This all happened in one fell swoop on May 1st of this year.

So was there a big einwanderung after this change? I suspect not; otherwise our right wing friends would be shouting this from the "minarets" :D

tom tulpe 05.09.2011 12:55

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1327298)
In case no one read the news recently, as of May 1, 2011, citizens of the so-called "EU-8" countries...Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, now have full rights to move to Switzerland and look for employment.

That's a combined population of over 73 Million people, many of whom are living in economically depressed countries where unemployment is high, taxes are high, and pay is a small fraction of what can be earned in Switzerland for the same job (and would likely be willing to accept lower pay here just to get in).

This all happened in one fell swoop on May 1st of this year.

And lo, four months in, and switzerland isn't full of Lithuanians waiting at street corners for some who would hire them for the day.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1327322)
I am not saying anything. I simply stated a fact.

Ah, lame excuse day. You did say what you quoted above, and implied (not very subtly) that a good part of those 73 million people would emigrate to Switzerland.

Karl 05.09.2011 13:04

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
We already have several recently hired where I work.

yjt 05.09.2011 13:04

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Even though this thread has moved talking points I'd still like to quickly clarify what I meant regarding space.

I know there are certain areas which are cheapish and has land. If someone is able to freely choose where to live then I'd definitely recommend Jura/Berner Oberland as well. I though have friends who I've known for a decade and family here and a job which means I'm reluclant to move that far within Switzerland. Funnily enough I do live in an urban area but work in a rural one. Places around my workplace are often way more expensive with taxes being 20% higher compared to where I live.

I actually don't mind to commute. France and Germany are both less than an hour away from where I currently live. Germany is roughly 3 min away from where I work. For me personally these are far more viable options than moving to JU or NE. I don't know if I will actually move across the border but it is definitely something which I'll think about.

These brings me on to the point I wanted to make. If someone(like me) is planning to leave the country but wishes to still work here or wishes to have no problems coming back, I think it would be careless not to get the Swiss pass before leaving as it looks like it will be increasingly hard to immigrate and work here.

tom tulpe 05.09.2011 13:05

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1327342)
We already have several recently hired where I work.

So you concede that with very low unemployment, the choice was to hire these people here or to transfer the entire business to a place outside Switzerland where enough staff could be hired?

Assassin 05.09.2011 13:06

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tom tulpe (Post 1327334)
And lo, four months in, and switzerland isn't full of Lithuanians waiting at street corners for some who would hire them for the day.

Almost, but not quite. Make that hire by the hour. The influx of prostitutes from the Baltic States working in Switzerland has greatly increased according to a colleague of mine with the ZH police.

Jaro 05.09.2011 13:07

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PaddyG (Post 1327331)
Erm, you think the UK and Irish economies are flourishing? Where have you been the last year or so?

been to UK more than I care to be. So you attribute the current economic slowdown/crisis to all the Poles that have taken over? It wouldn't be the bank run government? Bad policies? etc?

Jaro 05.09.2011 13:08

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl (Post 1327342)
We already have several recently hired where I work.

do you feel threatened?

Karl 05.09.2011 13:09

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaro (Post 1327358)
do you feel threatened?

No. I simply stated a fact (again).


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