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  #981  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Third nationals; nothing written in the initiative - could be their situation would improve if EU nationals no longer have priority.
Suppose (for illustration's sake) that currently 30,000 non-EU citizens compete for 10,000 visas annually; and 50,000 EU citizens enter Switzerland quota-free. And in 2017, the total quota will be set at 20,000.

So, now 30,000 non-EU citizens compete for 10,000 quotas (1:3 chance); in 2017, 80,000 (both EU and non-EU) will compete for 20,000 quotas. The chance will drop to 1:4.

It does not appear that this will improve the situation for anyone, including non-EU nationals.
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  #982  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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1) By definition, finding a job will be so much more difficult than at present. Both because of the quota system, and because of the huge increase in bureaucratic costs. Many employers will not bother, and simply prefer to hire a less qualified local worker.
I honestly do not believe that "less qualified local workers" is the problem. There are plenty of qualified workers in the country are are being overlooked.

They will now have to go with someone who perhaps wasn't their first choice. Currently there are plenty of very qualified spouses in the country that are being over looked, also older employees who are perfectly qualified but are being over looked because of age discrimination. There are some local employees who could be better trained.

It will be like what happened before the FMOP. Employees were quite capable of making their case to the authorities when they really did find a reason for an outside candidate. Many of the first EF members when through the pre-FMOP hoops and they are still here.

Before the FMOP the tiny company I worked for was able to make their case for a 23 yr old new graduate. If companies really want someone they have always been able to get them.

But, we'll have to see how this pans out.

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2) Work permits will most certainly be linked to a specific employer. Hence, very little room for negotiating better wages/promotions, because moving to another employer will be exceedingly difficult
Not if there are few employees or if employees currently in the country have priority? Again, will have to see who this pans out.

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3) Right to bring family members may be severely restricted. Right of spouses to work may be subject to the same limits and quotas, which will mean that many will stand very little change of fining work at all.
The right of spouses of B permit holders to work would go against the current laws on foreigners. I don't think they can override that law in this new initiative.
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  #983  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:04
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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According to the federal stats administration which uses nationality and not place of birth in 2012 there were 23.3% foreigners in switzerland.
According to the federal stats administration "foreigners" in Switzerland include people who were born in Switzerland whose parents are not Swiss citizens.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...nk/key/05.html

This reduces the number 23.3% foreigners somewhat

Excöuding Swiss born the number is 18.7%
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  #984  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So a permit renewal is equivalent to the issuing of a new permit?
No.

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if number of permits for foreigners is limited to a quota, then of course existing permits + new permits must be less than the quota.
It never has been before. I doubt it will be again.
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  #985  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:09
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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According to the federal stats administration "foreigners" in Switzerland include people who were born in Switzerland whose parents are not Swiss citizens.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...nk/key/05.html

This reduces the number 23.3% foreigners somewhat
Except they still count as foreigners for this initiative-they will still become second tier options in the job market even if they've lived here their entire lives.
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Old 10.02.2014, 01:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It never has been before. I doubt it will be again.
"Die Zahl der Bewilligungen für den Aufenthalt von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern in der Schweiz wird durch jährliche Höchstzahlen und Kontingente begrenzt."

So if they actually implement the initiative as stated, then yes, there will be a cap on total numbers.
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  #987  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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if number of permits for foreigners is limited to a quota, then of course existing permits + new permits must be less than the quota.
Yes, but the question is whether renewing a permit will be considered the same as having a new permit issued I.e. Will existing permit holders get priority over new permit applications and applications from asylum seekers?
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  #988  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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"Die Zahl der Bewilligungen für den Aufenthalt von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern in der Schweiz wird durch jährliche Höchstzahlen und Kontingente begrenzt."

So if they actually implement the initiative as stated, then yes, there will be a cap on total numbers.
I don't know what that means. I don't speak German.

Either way, DR asked if renewals will be considered renewals. And I said, they never were before so there is no reason they should be in the future. Renewals were always outside the quotas, never treated as new applications, even before the FMOP.

Last edited by miniMia; 10.02.2014 at 02:09.
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  #989  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:36
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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This is a victory for the far right in Switzerland and it will mark the start of a campaign with increasing restrictive policies on all non-Swiss.

I quote "According to Christoph Blocher, the chief ideologist and vice chair of the SVP, Switzerland would be better off without the large foreign population of 23 percent."

This is a small step forward for a far more extreme agenda....lets not forget where parties like these left Europe 70 years ago. They hide under "popular" policies but their real agenda is far more extreme.

The EU needs to get very tough now...we cannot allow the far-right to rise again and implement their sick "pure" view of the world.

I personally love living in Switzerland, the people are nice but we cannot forget that a proportion are deeply nationalist and racist and their agenda needs to be stopped.
Oh my god. Does it get any more melodramatic? Is the SVP conservative? Yes. Is it narrow minded? Maybe. Is it the second coming of the NSDAP? No.

I don't like this result at all, but could we all please stay calm and...



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True, but it wouldn't necessitate laws to be made to reflect that. Decisions like this are left to those who are qualified to make them, as they should be.
I really hope you are not referring to German and British politicians?! The ...erm... "best" of their kind.

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You mean act as though the people that voted in favour were idiots and should be ignored?

That's hardly likely. If they were to do that their chances of being re-elected would be fairly small wouldn't you say? The whole thing about direct democracy is that the voters have various tools at their disposal with which to rein back in a government that is not doing what the voters want it to do.

And that is pretty much what happened here and why this vote actually took place. Had the government had the courage to handle the concerns that were being voiced some time ago already we probably wouldn't have come to this. But they didn't. They lacked direction and appeared unable to take any measures to alleviate the concerns of a large part of the population. Today they have been advised that this wasn't good enough.

I, personally, think that this was not a good day for Switzerland and the government are chumps for having let this happen. But I respect the fact that many think differently and together we are going to have to make the best of the situation.
This. Democracy means that one has not only to accept the opinion, but also the decision made by the majority however narrow it might be and however stupid one finds it. This system is built on compromise and for now I am optimistic that it will be possible to find a creative solution for the problems ahead.

Still. This is yet another Sunday of disappointment for me. I will now retire into the local bar to find out if they carry anything that eases this kind of illness.
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  #990  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Hi all,

I am an EU citizen and in the next couple of months I am hoping to be getting a new job in Switzerland. Am I correct in understanding that while the federal government develops its policy, I should be able to secure a B permit as per normal procedure?

In addition, my wife will be joining me in 6 months time, will there be any issues in her joining me?

Thanks in advance.
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  #991  
Old 10.02.2014, 01:59
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yes, but the question is whether renewing a permit will be considered the same as having a new permit issued I.e. Will existing permit holders get priority over new permit applications and applications from asylum seekers?
Good question, really, but I can't see how the EU will continue to allow CH to remain in whatever bilateral agreements it currently has and, so, asylum seekers will likely be heavily discouraged due to it being a waste of time. Also, I think an earlier poster made a fine point about expats in CH on work visas may well find they have to move instead of being welcome to look for work.

I can't say that I'm surprised it passed, particularly after being greeted with those billboards after our summer holiday in 2012 but....I think it may go farther and deeper than even the most secure of expats expect it will. Don't panic, but be prepared and well informed since changes are clearly coming.
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  #992  
Old 10.02.2014, 02:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I think quite a few people are missing a point when they assume that high enough quotas will satisfy the EU and meet the requirements of the referendum. There is likely to be a crucial difference between the current right to work and reside in Switzerland, and the system based on work permit employment:

1) By definition, finding a job will be so much more difficult than at present. Both because of the quota system, and because of the huge increase in bureaucratic costs. Many employers will not bother, and simply prefer to hire a less qualified local worker.

2) Work permits will most certainly be linked to a specific employer. Hence, very little room for negotiating better wages/promotions, because moving to another employer will be exceedingly difficult

3) Right to bring family members may be severely restricted. Right of spouses to work may be subject to the same limits and quotas, which will mean that many will stand very little change of fining work at all.

4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. Your kids are going to school, you have property/been paying into pension schemes? Doesn't matter- losing a job will mean you will have to go back.

5) No social security, despite paying taxes.

6) High visa fees, no certainty in renewing your visa.

The Swiss government may set a quota of 200,000 per year. Still, this will not matter- all the factors listed above (and many more I did not mention) will affect all the holders of work permits.
About "4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. "

Pretty tough for the 360 thousand "foreigners" who were born here & also for the million foreigners who have lived here more than 4 years.
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  #993  
Old 10.02.2014, 02:27
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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- A country with 23% foreigners definitely should not be called xenophobic, even if it decides to limit the amount of immigrants.
I feel compelled to correct this statistic every time it is wrongfully cited. the 23% number is horribly distorted by the significant number of foreigners who were born in Switzerland or who qualify for Swiss citizenship but refuse to take it (the largest group of them being people who have lived in Switzerland for over 20 years) - when you back those folks out from the equation, the number of foreigners living in Switzerland is actually right around 10%.
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  #994  
Old 10.02.2014, 02:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

See below.

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I honestly do not believe that "less qualified local workers" is the problem. There are plenty of qualified workers in the country are are being overlooked.

They will now have to go with someone who perhaps wasn't their first choice.

Companies will thus be forced to hire not the best person for the job, but the local person.

Currently there are plenty of very qualified spouses in the country that are being over looked, also older employees who are perfectly qualified but are being over looked because of age discrimination. There are some local employees who could be better trained.

My company recently hired an oilfield microbiologist from Aberdeen. Find me a swiss housewife who happens to hold a microbiology degree and 10 years of oilfield experience, and i will concede your point.

It will be like what happened before the FMOP. Employees were quite capable of making their case to the authorities when they really did find a reason for an outside candidate. Many of the first EF members when through the pre-FMOP hoops and they are still here.

I assume you mean employers. The fact is that back then, companies were able to absorb the cost of this bureaucracy. Now, when margins for many companies are razor thin, the situation is very different. Businesses, especially small businesses, are not able to support the costs this would bring. As a point of measure. an old timer where i used to work told me that to get him over here cost the company over 100,000CHF, because of all the hoops that had to be filled. How many small businesses could afford that now?

Before the FMOP the tiny company I worked for was able to make their case for a 23 yr old new graduate. If companies really want someone they have always been able to get them.

But, we'll have to see how this pans out.

Not if there are few employees or if employees currently in the country have priority? Again, will have to see who this pans out.

The right of spouses of B permit holders to work would go against the current laws on foreigners. I don't think they can override that law in this new initiative.
From what i understand, the permits issued to these family members would be included in the quotas.
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Old 10.02.2014, 02:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Oh my god. Does it get any more melodramatic? Is the SVP conservative? Yes. Is it narrow minded? Maybe. Is it the second coming of the NSDAP? No.

I don't like this result at all, but could we all please stay calm and...




I really hope you are not referring to German and British politicians?! The ...erm... "best" of their kind.



This. Democracy means that one has not only to accept the opinion, but also the decision made by the majority however narrow it might be and however stupid one finds it. This system is built on compromise and for now I am optimistic that it will be possible to find a creative solution for the problems ahead.

Still. This is yet another Sunday of disappointment for me. I will now retire into the local bar to find out if they carry anything that eases this kind of illness.
They are far from the best of their kind. But they are still better qualified than me.
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Old 10.02.2014, 02:38
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Now place yourself into the shoes of the average Swiss citizen. Everywhere you look in the countries around, you see what problems mass immigration has brought for them. You don't see the benefits mostly, but you see how policies that were not adjusted in time spiraled into much bigger problems a decade later. You feel that your country is in a delicate balance that could be easily unhinged because of mass immigration. You know that the majority of immigrants will not abuse the social system, but you are worried that it simply won't be able to deal with the onslaught. You are worried that your standard of living will suffer because of it.
I notice you don't say that the swiss person actually sits down and thinks about how much impact the foreigners are having, in comparison to the benefits they provide.

what mass immigration onslaught are you referring to? The one that everyone in the UK was terrified about but which never actually happened?
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Old 10.02.2014, 02:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Undemocratic? The EU?

Why didn't anyone tell us?
Nobody told peope in German lands in 1871

----------------------------------------------------------------------

you may have noted that one of the heaviest NO votes came from Schaffhausen, a state which for ages was a member of the Schwäbische Bund





and this

lead SH to ally with Zürich and and then to become a member of CH

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Old 10.02.2014, 02:56
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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I feel compelled to correct this statistic every time it is wrongfully cited. the 23% number is horribly distorted by the significant number of foreigners who were born in Switzerland or who qualify for Swiss citizenship but refuse to take it (the largest group of them being people who have lived in Switzerland for over 20 years) - when you back those folks out from the equation, the number of foreigners living in Switzerland is actually right around 10%.
Would be comical if the result of this vote was that the circa 1.1Million foreigners currently eligible for Swiss citizenship now applied and obtained the red pass?

Anyway the SVP would be happy to see the foreigner percentage fall to less than 10%

added the link to the statistics, remember this was end of 2012 so more people will qualify than shown here plus there will be people who qualify through marriage or Swiss relatives that do not show up in these numbers;
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...nk/key/05.html

Last edited by marton; 10.02.2014 at 03:14. Reason: added the link to the statistics
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Old 10.02.2014, 03:02
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Its probably worth taking a look at the bilateral accords that now are under jeopardy:

http://www.europa.admin.ch/themen/00...x.html?lang=en

For instance just in agriculture : ""Approximately 62% of Swiss agricultural exports going to EU-Member States in 2012, while in Switzerland about 73 % of agricultural imports come from the EU.""

The SVP believe they can alter the Free Movement accord without impacting all the other EU accords. The initial response from the EU is that they cannot....if the three year period runs out and the Swiss government cannot renegotiate and they automatically and unilaterally scrap the accord then the EU will probably scrap all the accords.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics...l?cid=37493788

Right now the focus is on limiting immigration...it won't stay that way as the consequences will be far stronger....
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Old 10.02.2014, 03:09
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

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Would be comical if the result of this vote was that the circa 1.1Million foreigners currently eligible for Swiss citizenship now applied and obtained the red pass?

Anyway the SVP would be happy to see the foreigner percentage fall to less than 10%
NOT comical at all but what I hope for
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