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-   -   Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/124269-masseneinwanderung-stoppen-initiative-limit-immigration.html)

poptart 10.02.2014 03:11

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2084531)
About "4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. "

Pretty tough for the 360 thousand "foreigners" who were born here & also for the million foreigners who have lived here more than 4 years.

You say that as if being born on/in a country of the EU has the same ramifications that being born in the US does....which it doesn't. Depending on how far this goes and if CH really wants to chuck all the bilateral agreements (read money) there are likely going to be a lot of expats with their ass in a bind, most especially ones who comfortably believe that living somewhere with children and property surely makes their future safe.

Castro 10.02.2014 03:11

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Given that the Swiss could be staring into the abyss in 3 years if the EU decide to invoke the guillotine clause and scrap all treaties, is it not conceivable that the Swiss could vote to overturn this latest initiative? The SvP victory was narrow, given the clear consequences a revote should defeat it.

marton 10.02.2014 03:21

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 2084546)
You say that as if being born on/in a country of the EU has the same ramifications that being born in the US does....which it doesn't. Depending on how far this goes and if CH really wants to chuck all the bilateral agreements (read money) there are likely going to be a lot of expats with their ass in a bind, most especially ones who comfortably believe that living somewhere with children and property surely makes their future safe.

About "You say that as if being born on/in a country of the EU has the same ramifications that being born in the US does....which it doesn't"

True but it is usually much easier for a child born on France, Germany, UK or Ireland to get citizenship than in Switzerland.

Wollishofener 10.02.2014 03:22

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 2084546)
You say that as if being born on/in a country of the EU has the same ramifications that being born in the US does....which it doesn't. Depending on how far this goes and if CH really wants to chuck all the bilateral agreements (read money) there are likely going to be a lot of expats with their ass in a bind, most especially ones who comfortably believe that living somewhere with children and property surely makes their future safe.

Switzerland does NOT want to terminate the Bilateral agreements

AND, while the foreign minister in a country where the president or the government/ministers get voted in, the members of the Swiss Federal government are voted into office by the Federal Congress. This means that the members of the government are PART of the government.

Yes, I in the place of Didier Burkhalter, would resign effective noon Monday ..... BUT could not nominate a successor

poptart 10.02.2014 03:26

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 2084549)
Switzerland does NOT want to terminate the Bilateral agreements

Well, no, especially since it's quite economically stupid to do so, but why should the EU continue such agreements when freedom of movement is key and wouldn't be tolerated from any other member country? Reaping the consequence of the action is really required as if the EU lets CH off all others will follow.

marton 10.02.2014 03:42

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
In Brussels, the European Commission issued a statement saying that it was “disappointed” that the initiative had passed, adding that it would have to study the vote’s implications on relations between the European Union and Switzerland.
-------------------------------------------
“It is far more than a political slap in the face,” the left-leaning newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote in an editorial published on its website after the result was announced. “The Yes to the ‘Massive Immigration Initiative’ is a censure that is comparable to No to the European Economic Area.

“What the verdict means for relations between Switzerland and the E.U. is completely open, but it certainly won’t be good for the economic vitality and prosperity in this country.”
-------------------------------------------------------------

Wollishofener 10.02.2014 03:44

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 2084550)
Well, no, especially since it's quite economically stupid to do so, but why should the EU continue such agreements when freedom of movement is key and wouldn't be tolerated from any other member country? Reaping the consequence of the action is really required as if the EU lets CH off all others will follow.

The EU side even without the real freedom of movement profits in many ways. The Bilaterals never were and are not "Goodies" of the EU for Switzerland. I am a defender of the Bilaterals and have been through countless votes, of which most ended IN FAVOUR of the Bilaterals. But if the EU decides to terminate what I consider a good program, it has to be accepted.

But, are Russians worse than Poles ? Can't factories be moved from Poland to Russia or Ukraine ? The old trams of Zürich went to the Ukraine and the EU did not object :p

marton 10.02.2014 03:47

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
And from the Tagesanzeiger

«Die Schweiz sagt ‹ the EU›»

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/...story/12397924

Seems the EF software removed the key word - it has 4 letters begins with F and ends with K :)

poptart 10.02.2014 03:54

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 2084552)
The EU side even without the real freedom of movement profits in many ways. The Bilaterals never were and are not "Goodies" of the EU for Switzerland. I am a defender of the Bilaterals and have been through countless votes, of which most ended IN FAVOUR of the Bilaterals. But if the EU decides to terminate what I consider a good program, it has to be accepted.

But, are Russians worse than Poles ? Can't factories be moved from Poland to Russia or Ukraine ? The old trams of Zürich went to the Ukraine and the EU did not object :p

If every EU country country could limit immigration and retain everything else don't you think they'd be all over doing the same as CH in a New York minute? Don't be so naive.

Wollishofener 10.02.2014 04:10

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 2084554)
If every EU country country could limit immigration and retain everything else don't you think they'd be all over doing the same as CH in a New York minute? Don't be so naive.

Just simply wait for the future !! Don't be naive. The EU always was and always will be a kind of bazar. Add to this that exactly the way in which the UK DID likmit immigration lead the Tamils to Switzerland.

Which shows that Switzerland was far more liberal than the United Kingdom which DID limit immigration far more

--------------------------------------------------

here below a development which is far more important for Switzerland but was moved into this thread for unknown reasons

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

D) the elections for the Zürich City government are done. Here the results

Andres Türler -- 12'166 Freisinnige Partei (LIBERALS)
Corine Mauch -- 11'793 Sozialdemokratische Partei (SOCIAL DEMOCRATS
Gerold Lauber--- 11'168 CVP Christlich Sozial (CATHOLIC CONSERVATIVES
Daniel Leupi -- 11'135 Grüne Partei (GREENS)
André Odermatt 10'153 SP (SOCIAL DEMOCRATS)
Claudia Nielsen - 9'299 SP (SOCIAL DEMOCRATS)
Filippo Leutenegger 9'131 Freisinnig (LIBERALS)
Richard Wolff ---- 8'663 Alternative Liste (LEFTWING ALTERNATIVES)
Raphael Golta- --- 8'372 SP (SOCIAL DEMOCRATS )

- Interesting aspects
> the SVP failed again to get into the city government
> Rightwinger FDP chap Filippo Leutenegger HAS entered government but not as city president
> Alternative Richard Wolff managed to get into government again --- to get him OUT was THE major objective of the rightwingers
> Daniel Leupi, the GREEN police commander even got a fairly respectable result, clearly in recognition of this good work in recent years
> In REALPOLITIK, the real defacto allies of City President Mauch will be Andres Türler (FDP), Daniel Leupi (GP), Filippo Leutenegger (FDP and Richard Wolff (AL) -- cannot say whether this will have effects onto unionwide politics, and if so, in which way

*********************************************

and this simply means that the EU can force Switzerland to get closer to Ukraine and Russia and India and China and USA and Canada

IF the EU decides to ignore 49,5% of people here , those 49,5 will happily help to work against the EU in whatever way .

Back to the topic chosen above here, the outcome in the City of Zürich IS important for the country, at least as much as the present initiative problem ------ not least as the vote of BAsel-Stadt and of the Romandie was similar

lewton 10.02.2014 07:02

Re: results on 9 Feb 14
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dack Rambo (Post 2084423)
Switzerland does not have a higher percentage of foreigners than Germany, Uk or France, it's just harder to get a passport here

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 2084432)
According to oecd report 2013 it's the third highest after Luxembourg and Israel.

You completely missed Dack Rambo's point though....

PMP 10.02.2014 07:21

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
I got an offer, good offer (way over 200K swiss francs +perks) to move to Switzerland and when I read this thread and when I saw results of this Sunday referendum I seriously started to think if I should move or not... Perhaps I should add I'm EU citizen living in US almost 6 years and because of the offer from Switzerland I put on hold application for US passport which I could get within next two months (reason: taxes).

Castro 10.02.2014 08:28

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
I think the right answer is no, because if my worst fears are realised this will spell the end of the Swiss economic miracle. What forward thinking CEO in a specialist tech, Pharma, financial services etc.. Company would now choose Switzerland to establish an entity. And for companies like Roche, Novartis this already vindicates their decision to start outsourcing to India.. Plentiful talent on tap, with no restrictions.

As for foreigners already here, well we have 3 years to start thinking about leaving before being pushed. Suddenly job offers in Frankfurt, Brussels, UK, USA don't look so unappealing. Even if my C permit does end up being worth more than the paper it's printed on and I'm not unceremoniously kicked out, do I really want to live in a country where job prospects could be so bleak.

I don't believe much of this was on the minds of those who gleefully voted on what they thought was a pure immigration issue. If looking for a modern day fable on killing a goose that lays golden eggs.. This could be it.

Aubrey 10.02.2014 08:32

Re: results on 9 Feb 14
 




buf.

lost_inbroad 10.02.2014 08:59

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Direct effects of a direct democracy.

Dack Rambo 10.02.2014 09:04

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2084547)
Given that the Swiss could be staring into the abyss in 3 years if the EU decide to invoke the guillotine clause and scrap all treaties, is it not conceivable that the Swiss could vote to overturn this latest initiative?

You mean adopt the irish referendum system where the people have to vote again if they get it wrong?

Dack Rambo 10.02.2014 09:10

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2084581)
As for foreigners already here, well we have 3 years to start thinking about leaving before being pushed. Suddenly job offers in Frankfurt, Brussels, UK, USA don't look so unappealing.

Spot on, I'm hoping to find something acceptable in that 3 year period.

Pachyderm 10.02.2014 09:10

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2084581)
I think the right answer is no, because if my worst fears are realised this will spell the end of the Swiss economic miracle. What forward thinking CEO in a specialist tech, Pharma, financial services etc.. Company would now choose Switzerland to establish an entity. And for companies like Roche, Novartis this already vindicates their decision to start outsourcing to India.. Plentiful talent on tap, with no restrictions.

As for foreigners already here, well we have 3 years to start thinking about leaving before being pushed. Suddenly job offers in Frankfurt, Brussels, UK, USA don't look so unappealing. Even if my C permit does end up being worth more than the paper it's printed on and I'm not unceremoniously kicked out, do I really want to live in a country where job prospects could be so bleak.

I don't believe much of this was on the minds of those who gleefully voted on what they thought was a pure immigration issue. If looking for a modern day fable on killing a goose that lays golden eggs.. This could be it.

People -- please. Are we not over-reacting here?

Or is it me who is being naive? My understanding is that the referendum result calls (by the narrowest possible margin) for a cap on immigration. I interpret this as, instead of allowing endless numbers of foreigners in to work, there will, in the future, be a limit -- say 50K, 100K (who knows) per year.

This is what a CAP means. A cap is not a barrier, it's a limit -- I do not interpret this result as calling for an end to all immigration and I certainly do not see it as leading to the expulsion of settled, economically active people who originate from other countries.

Tell me I'm a wide-eyed innocent if necessary, but at the moment I can see an awful lot of panicking and alarmist nonsense being expressed!!

k_and_e 10.02.2014 09:13

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2084581)
Suddenly job offers in Frankfurt, Brussels, UK, USA don't look so unappealing.

Imagine that you are non-EU. There wouldn't be any differences between these countries and Switzerland, regarding immigration.

finnswiss 10.02.2014 09:20

Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachyderm (Post 2084602)
People -- please. Are we not over-reacting here?

Or is it me who is being naive? My understanding is that the referendum result calls (by the narrowest possible margin) for a cap on immigration. I interpret this as, instead of allowing endless numbers of foreigners in to work, there will, in the future, be a limit -- say 50K, 100K (who knows) per year.

This is what a CAP means. A cap is not a barrier, it's a limit -- I do not interpret this result as calling for an end to all immigration and I certainly do not see it as leading to the expulsion of settled, economically active people who originate from other countries.

Tell me I'm a wide-eyed innocent if necessary, but at the moment I can see an awful lot of panicking and alarmist nonsense being expressed!!

This result reinforces that in the eyes of the majority, immigrants will always be second-class citizens. I do feel less welcome in this country today than I did yesterday and want my children to feel like first-class citizens in the country where I choose to raise them.

No reason to panic, but one should consider what it means.


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