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  #1101  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:27
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Re: results on 9 Feb 14

Technically speaking you're right.
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Then they aren't foreigners.

Tom
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  #1102  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:28
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I don't know about you but my expectation is to turn up once every 5 years with a form, my permit and my passport, to stand in a queue for 15 minutes and spend 132 seconds at the window while the form is stamped and a copy of my passport taken.....
You forgot the cash.
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  #1103  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:29
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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If you cant read the german then look at the pictures

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_1067059.html
It's always amusing when people or media from countries with a foreign population of 10% or less accuse the Swiss of racism or xenophobia...
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  #1104  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:30
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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no, it really is 3.2% and the Swiss are worried.
What I mean is how can 3.2% unemployment be considered horrendous?

For example, being in full employment doesn't actually mean that a country has to have zero unemployment, as the allowance is made for people moving between jobs, structural unemployment etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

In any country I am aware of, 3.2% unemployment rate would be considered perfect.
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  #1105  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What I mean is how can 3.2% unemployment be considered horrendous?
It was 0.3% when I moved here.

Tom
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  #1106  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:32
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The article accurately reports a catalogue of racist and exclusionist events in Switzerland in recent years, including some supported by a majority of Swiss citizens. How do you see that as propaganda and gross generalisation?
How?

1) They report very inaccurate event and very badly interpreted.
Ex: Oprah. Allegedly victim of racism, while she could have been also victim of what we are all suffering off: poor customer service.

2) It's mostly about media campaigns made by some political group. Which are of course exaggerating and playing on stereotype.

3) It's about your interpretation to it, for example the event about the black sheep. Some have seen racist against black people. But it could be also a simple metaphor or "difference". Also, look positively, think off the black swan story, being different is not always a bad thing.
I'd say they tried to make a borderline shocking campaign, it worked well because we are still talking about it. Although for me, the message you think they passed is not negative because I'd ignore it.

4) Propaganda, because it's like regrouping several attempts to pass something in media at once and saying "Swiss are racists". In fact, the Swiss have rejected some of the things that were advertised, so it's not like "they are all for it".

5) It's not all Swiss or majority of Swiss but some political campaigns made for the media and spread by the media. It's not every day life.
In fact how many times have soon see a white sheep kicking a black sheep?
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  #1107  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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It will change things for smaller companies though
No, I got a B permit in 1994, the company employed 30 people it took about 4 months in total IIRC.
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  #1108  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I don't know about you but my expectation is to turn up once every 5 years with a form, my permit and my passport, to stand in a queue for 15 minutes and spend 132 seconds at the window while the form is stamped and a copy of my passport taken.....
My expectation is that they will make the EU B-Permit the same as the
non-EU B permit, i.e. renewable on a yearly basis.So maybe you stand
in the queue every year like us non-EU schmucks.
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  #1109  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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What I mean is how can 3.2% unemployment be considered horrendous?

For example, being in full employment doesn't actually mean that a country has to have zero unemployment, as the allowance is made for people moving between jobs, structural unemployment etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

In any country I am aware of, 3.2% unemployment rate would be considered perfect.
You're not aware of Switzerland then, I'd say.

I'm fully aware that there may be voluntarily-unemployed people in society - transitioning between jobs, not wanting to work, waiting for the perfect opportunity - but the Swiss don't have the same outlook as others.

In short, the Swiss are seeing work being nearshored, offshored or jobs simply being cut. They therefore view this as horrendous and blame the foreigners. Considering Switzerland needs foreigners to sustain its growth, they're wrong but they have voted.

I'd expect there are two reasons that Ticino voted so strongly for the cuts - traffic and downward pressure on wages.

Which brings it back to a NIMBY attitude and care. This is neither right or wrong - it simply is what it is.
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  #1110  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No, I got a B permit in 1994, the company employed 30 people it took about 4 months in total IIRC.
you've got to consider the supply side also, not just demand from employers
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  #1111  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:45
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Referendum, what happens after May 31 with EU nationals ?

In principle the restriction on the free movement of workers from EU to switzerland was going to end on May 31. I read in the newspapers that it was approved by referendum to further imposed quotas but these is to be negotiated with the EU over the next three years.
So, does this mean that after May 31 there is a window of opportunity for EU nationals to move to Switzerland before more restrictions are in place? Or after the vote on Sunday, the restrictions will be in place on May 31 so no more easy entrance in to Switezerland?
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  #1112  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:47
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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you've got to consider the supply side also, not just demand from employers
There was no one in CH capable of doing my job, so I got a permit, it's how it works for non EU. B permit was yearly renewable.
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  #1113  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:50
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Re: Referendum, what happens after May 31 with EU nationals ?

This weekend's referendum result will indeed take years to become law. The 31 May date remains unchanged and the "opportunities" for EU citizens still remain. What happens to them after the new quotas and restrictions are applied is anyone's guess.
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  #1114  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:51
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'd expect there are two reasons that Ticino voted so strongly for the cuts - traffic and downward pressure on wages.

Which brings it back to a NIMBY attitude and care. This is neither right or wrong - it simply is what it is.
I read a few related topics on another forum for foreigners in Ch (not in English ) and understood that these were the main reasons for Yes vote in Ticino...and a Yes coming from some paper Swiss...
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  #1115  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:53
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Reading the hysteria here and from the foreign media would make one believe that something major is actually going to change here.

I see where the initiative was headed and why it came to a referendum. On this occasion I voted against it because it was way too generalized and a knee-jerk reaction to an actual situation however important it is for Switzerland's future.

Quite how immigration contingents are created and formed is not an exact science. Local Cantonal demographics, employment offices and SECO will have to play with the numbers, but actually implementing these details will be nigh on impossible to legislate. If a Swiss company wants to employ a foreigner which they determine cannot be fulfilled by a local person, then there is little doubt that the current situation in place will prevail and that person will gain entry.

Charging the SVP as being racist is both naîve and inaccurate. The SVP didn't approve the vote yesterday, 50.6% of the voting Swiss public did. That means that beyond all the socialist furore, many average Swiss citizens are concerned about their own interests and that their voices are being diluted in the ever changing backdrop of demographics in this nation.

Ever since the liberal FDP party lost their traditional conservative backing some 20 years ago, the SVP has been the party of the traditionalists and conservative voters. Clearly, many who voted yesterday are not normally SVP voters, so one needs to acknowledge that our political spectrum is not as fairly represented as it once was.

So I lost out with my vote yesterday. Am I pissed? Not really. And that's the quintessence of Swiss democracy. The vote was fair and now it's the turn of the lawmakers in Bern to draft some wording to attempt to put the public's will into a new law. And if 100'000 signatories don't like it, then we'll vote about it again in a few years and overturn it.

Because that's Swiss democracy. And if you don't like it, then you can either get involved in our political militia system and bring your agenda to the table or look up the meaning of "Konkordanzdemokratie".
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  #1116  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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How hard could it be to scrape up 100,000 signatures to initiate a referendum to have Ticino kicked out of the Swiss Confederation? Problems (present and future) solved.
Wow! An Australian in Switzerland calling for a Kanton to be "kicked out of the Swiss Confederation" - now I have seen it all!
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  #1117  
Old 10.02.2014, 11:55
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You forget that the Kantons can then step in and place their own restrictions on the requirements for a C-permit: for example, applicants must have at least Level B1 of German - like Schwyz already did.
Maybe they can add exceptions to these rules for EU to make it compatible with FMOP.
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Old 10.02.2014, 12:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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No, it's much more than the cap issue. It's the right to reside and work vs living on a work permit issue. Here's a recap of what I already said above:

1) By definition, finding a job will be so much more difficult than at present. Both because of the quota system, and because of the huge increase in bureaucratic costs. Many employers will not bother, and simply prefer to hire a less qualified local worker.

2) Work permits will most certainly be linked to a specific employer. Hence, very little room for negotiating better wages/promotions, because moving to another employer will be exceedingly difficult

3) Right to bring family members may be severely restricted. Right of spouses to work may be subject to the same limits and quotas, which will mean that many will stand very little change of fining work at all.

4) No job security. Being fired will probably mean having to leave the country. Your kids are going to school, you have property/been paying into pension schemes? Doesn't matter- losing a job will mean you will have to go back.

5) No social security, despite paying taxes.

6) High visa fees, no certainty in renewing your visa.

The Swiss government may set a quota of 200,000 per year. Still, this will not matter- all the factors listed above (and many more I did not mention) will affect all the holders of work permits.
Where are you getting this from? You are presenting these as some facts/highly probable outcomes whereas in reality nobody has any clue as to what the rules will look like.

When it comes down to negotiating with the EU, Switzerland is not the one in the position of power. A very large portion of the Swiss import and export goes to the EU. It is completely out of the question that Switzerland could lose access to the EU markets and both the Swiss leadership and EU are painfully aware of this. I believe that the most probable outcome is indeed some watered down law that puts some cap on the newly issued B permits and/or removes social security for newcomers who haven't contributed yet.
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  #1119  
Old 10.02.2014, 12:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The people I feel sorry for are the young Swiss. Their horizons are likely to be limited to their own country in the foreseeable future. It will be tough when you’re surrounded by countries where employers are not just allowed but obliged to discriminate against you.
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Old 10.02.2014, 12:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Direct democracy in action, gotta love it...It's not a significant majority which illustrates how much difference of opinion on the topic there is although it is interesting to note that the voter turnout was quite high which also tells a story...When you consider similar initiatives had failed over the years, it reflects the growing concerns here & throughout Europe about immigration...Important to note there is a difference between controlled & uncontrolled immigration

I know my in laws were very tuned in to see what the result of the vote were all day yesterday.

There are lots of implications but even many EFers need to take a long look in the mirror in terms of their attempts to integrate within the society/culture here...Even in just the last decade I've seen an increasing percentage of people, especially in Suisse Romande, living a separate existence from the Suisse - English is heard more & more everywhere...Throw in traffic & housing costs/shortage and you can't help but appreciate there would be an inevitable backlash - even if it was just enough to be deemed a majority (By less than 20k votes)

The cantonal breakdown was interesting when you consider that French speaking ones all voted against it while most of the German & Italian did the opposite...The urban vs rural split showed more voting yes where immigration was actually lowest - we could say that this was perhaps more reactionary or due to perceived concerns or prejudices...Although Ticino had a 70% yes vote, the highest in the country

And because the Suisse economy is robust in Europe where many others struggle, it stands to reason that immigration was potentially going to increase as a result and that limits make sense on a fundamental level, particularly when you consider the country boasts the highest percentage of immigrants in Europe already...I am curious, however, what the fallout will be for the Suisse who live in Europe
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