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  #1641  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:08
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Aye but the question that needs answering is who will lose more?
Could be the question for the next big debate...between Scotland and the U.K.!!
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  #1642  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Both already lost it, one side by passing this thing, the other side by the reactions.
On va voir.
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  #1643  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Aye but the question that needs answering is who will lose more?
Well, you can believe the worst of someone and the best of someone.

I would hope that the best heads are sitting at the table.

Surely there must be a few clever people in a population 508,000,000 souls.
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  #1644  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:19
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well, you can believe the worst of someone and the best of someone.

I would hope that the best heads are sitting at the table.

Surely there must be a few clever people in a population 508,000,000 souls.
You're mistaken in believing it will be the clever swiss souls and the clever EU souls doing the talking.
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  #1645  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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You're mistaken in believing it will be the clever swiss souls and the clever EU souls doing the talking.
Maybe I am a dreamer after all. Still though, there is a lot at stake, will be in everyone's interest to be ..ahem circumspect and take the loooong view of matters.
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  #1646  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:46
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I've created a new stickied thread here which is intended to deal with the facts. It's pretty bare at the moment as you would expect, but it'll be updated as and when we have further info, hence it's locked.

It might be as well to refer newbies who are looking to come here to that thread.

This thread has too much chaff to be useful in any other way than a discussion.
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  #1647  
Old 11.02.2014, 19:58
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

There were roughly 300K Italian, 225K German, 200K Serbia and Montenegro, 200K Portuguese, 85K French, 75K Spanish, 60K Macedonian, 45K Bosnian, 40K Croatian, 35K Austrians, 35K British citizens residing in Switzerland.

Is this referendum aimed at the Italians and Germans who make up half million of the foreign born population? Or is it aimed at the 200K Serbian and Montenegrin currently in Switzerland and those looking to come?

Here in the States we talk a lot about immigration reform. On one side are those who are largely driven by a desire to curb Hispanic immigration. And on the other, citizenship for all..

I can't help but see the similarities vis a vis Serbia/Montenegro. Im anxious to see how this plays out.
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  #1648  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The weird thing in Ticino is that Italians, Portuguese, and those from ex-Yugoslavia generally integrate very well.om

Tom
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  #1649  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:07
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

My feeling about the way the EU is behaving regarding this Swiss issue is easily explained.
In May this year the EU will be holding their MEP elections and it is being predicted that in those countries that have EU skeptic parties (like the UKIP in Britain) there is going to be a landslide of anti-EU voting.
All this bad mouthing Switzerland is the EU wanting to punish Switzerland for encouraging their anti-EU voters.
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  #1650  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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My feeling about the way the EU is behaving regarding this Swiss issue is easily explained.
In May this year the EU will be holding their MEP elections and it is being predicted that in those countries that have EU skeptic parties (like the UKIP in Britain) that there is going to be a landslide of anti-EU voting. All this bad mouthing Switzerland is the EU wanting to punish Switzerland for encouraging their anti-EU voters.
A very simplistic view of things.

I presume you have access to quality journalism where all sides of the matter are covered?
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  #1651  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I've created a new stickied thread here which is intended to deal with the facts. It's pretty bare at the moment as you would expect, but it'll be updated as and when we have further info, hence it's locked.

It might be as well to refer newbies who are looking to come here to that thread.

This thread has too much chaff to be useful in any other way than a discussion.
Good idea! Thanks for that!
I think it might make sense to add some links to further information for the ones who want to read up what is already known by now. What do you think?

I would suggest some of these:
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  #1652  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I am copying the following from comments at FT (I do not know if the info provided is correct or not, but it is potentially interesting).

"Contrary to your assumption, the free movement of goods and the free movement of people is not linked directly by treaty. Neither does Switzerland benefit from the freedom of Services.

Second, unless the EU chooses the nuclear option, which will hurt Switzerland a lot, but the EU plenty as well, only the following treaties are linked as part of the so called "Bilaterals I" and potentially affected by this decision:

Freedom of Movement
Transit Treaty
Research Treaty
Free Skies Treaty
Treaty on Public Tenders
Agricultural Treaty

Treaty of Movement:
What the Swiss now want to modify.

Transit Treaty:
Limits the weight and number of transits across Switzerland by EU trucks. The EU has been in breach of the treaty limits for years, but the Swiss never had the balls to call them on it. Here the EU potentially has a lot to lose and this will be a Swiss bargaining chip.

Research Treaty:
Swiss institutions get access to the EU pot but Switzerland has to pay in. Contributions and grants to Switzerland are more or less even so this is a wash.

Free Skies Treaty:
Obviously this used to be of big value when Swissair still existed. However, Swiss now belongs to Lufthansa, so this treaty has lost it's value and become irrelevant.

Treaty on Public Tenders:
Allows Swiss companies to theoretically bid on EU public contracts and vice versa. For all the high hopes originally placed on this, it's a paper tiger due to various bureaucratic shenanigans imposed in nearly all EU countries on outside competitors. De facto irrelevant.

Agricultural goods:
Here the EU can extract a pound of flesh but demanding bigger market access. I expect some concession will have to be made here, even so, a relative sideshow in economic terms, though politically sensitive."

KTZV
The Free Skies Treaty still is important as Swiss legally is a Swiss company as well as Darwin

The Research Treaty is valuable

Transit Treaty >> yes, this would be the tool to retaliate in case the EU tries to play "Rough Rider"
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  #1653  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Good idea! Thanks for that!
I think it might make sense to add some links to further information for the ones who want to read up what is already known by now. What do you think
Credit where credit is due. It's already in that thread.
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  #1654  
Old 11.02.2014, 20:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Interesting that my wife, who is even more in favor of this than I, has only been married to paper Swiss.

Or, perhaps that's why.

Tom
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Old 11.02.2014, 20:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

From the article here : http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business...l?cid=37931734

I note Han's Kaufmann SVP economics spokesman from the article: "Possible measures suggested by Kaufmann of the People’s Party include a quota auction that would allow companies to compete for a restricted pot of foreign workers each year.

Another idea would be to introduce a points system that would only allow through foreigners with high enough qualifications and work experience.

Creating a separate social insurance system for transitory workers could relieve the burden of supporting unemployed foreigners, Kaufmann added.

That would suggest that the SVP intends to use this measure to setup a new social insurance system that would discriminate against non-Swiss. So as "guest workers" we will be in a system more restrictive and more discriminatory than pre-2007.
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Old 11.02.2014, 20:57
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The weird thing in Ticino is that Italians, Portuguese, and those from ex-Yugoslavia generally integrate very well.om

Tom
and WHO does NOT ?
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  #1657  
Old 11.02.2014, 21:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Yes, business as usual for at least the next 3 years. And its not a B Visa, but a B Permit (residence and working rights)
Might not be 3 years!

According to the FT Croatia will join the FMOP later this year and Switzerland will need to formally agree.
Questions are
  • Will the B'rat feel empowered to make this agreement/extension?
  • If the B'rat does not then how will the EU react?

Outlook is not all bad; an agency rang me today and offered a freelance contract. First question was "you are Swiss?".
After I told them my daily rate they said they would call back in half an hour; that was 3 hours ago
Opportunistic pricing

Anyway I will be 72 in a couple of months so I would feel bad taking a job opportunity away from an EU person......
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  #1658  
Old 11.02.2014, 21:03
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Anyway I will be 72 in a couple of months so I would feel bad taking a job opportunity away from an EU person......
I always thought you were a young thirty-something guy.

Respect!
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Old 11.02.2014, 21:05
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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From the article here : http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business...l?cid=37931734

I note Han's Kaufmann SVP economics spokesman from the article: "Possible measures suggested by Kaufmann of the People’s Party include a quota auction that would allow companies to compete for a restricted pot of foreign workers each year.

Another idea would be to introduce a points system that would only allow through foreigners with high enough qualifications and work experience.

Creating a separate social insurance system for transitory workers could relieve the burden of supporting unemployed foreigners, Kaufmann added.

That would suggest that the SVP intends to use this measure to setup a new social insurance system that would discriminate against non-Swiss. So as "guest workers" we will be in a system more restrictive and more discriminatory than pre-2007.
About "Creating a separate social insurance system for transitory workers could relieve the burden of supporting unemployed foreigners, Kaufmann added.

Not strong on mathematics are the SVP? Currently the "transitory workers" subsidise the social insurance system to the extent of 10% of the total according to the Bureau of Statistics.

So the Swiss only social insurance system would have to increase rates by roughly four thirds of 10% (say 13%) to cover their Swiss only commitments.

Might also mean the separate social insurance system for transitory workers would have much lower rates; theoretically they could cut the contribution rates by two thirds
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  #1660  
Old 11.02.2014, 21:09
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "Creating a separate social insurance system for transitory workers could relieve the burden of supporting unemployed foreigners, Kaufmann added.

Not strong on mathematics are the SVP? Currently the "transitory workers" subsidise the social insurance system to the extent of 10% of the total according to the Bureau of Statistics.

So the Swiss only social insurance system would have to increase rates by roughly four thirds of 10% (say 13%) to cover their Swiss only commitments.

Might also mean the separate social insurance system for transitory workers would have much lower rates; theoretically they could cut the contribution rates by two thirds
You've made a mistake in your calculation; you assumed the SVP are capable of elementary maths.

According to SVP-maths, the verdammt auslanders take all the money from the social insurance. Without them, swiss coffers will overflow with gold.
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