Neo Nazi organisations? Do you know something that I don't or are you just talking out of your behind?
The Neo Nazi website you were talking about:
http://ripostelaique.com/qui-sommes-nous

edit: Sigh.. if only the SVP opponents had a bit more brain, then I wouldn't have to play the devil's advocate all the time.

On this forum, of course some jump on the 'I hate SVP' bandwagon without knowing a fig.
If you read through the posts this is clear.
There is a great deal of emotion and assumption and not a lot of actual political assessment and comment.

Having a lot of contact with ordinary Swiss folk, I see and hear much.
Sorry if I don't always bring it across in the best way. I certainly don't condone violence but understand reaction to provocation.
And I still dislike Freysinger and what he stands for.

My comments:
Is this coincidence or is there a movement that has been building for some time, and actual people "writing the script"? Who are the real leaders in North America and Europe behind this? Every moment, no matter what it is, has a mass of mindless drones, and a key group of intellectuals at the lead. So who are they? Since Freysinger introduced no original thought who is thinking for him?

2) Maybe most importantly, what is the likely outcome of what they are saying? The valdity does not matter as much as what these people will do if they get their way.

I'm interested in this because I'm a non-EU citizen (although Westerner) who is a visible non-white minority living in Europe. So yeah, I may not be a Muslim, but I don't trust that if these nationalist get their way they won't target me after the Muslims...(if not at the same time). Nationalism and racialism (something I also believe influences many if not most) always rolls down hill in this manner...there usually, historically, is not a middle ground.[/QUOTE]


i dont th ink there's any "Star Chamber" type, centrally controlled command and control intellectual hub controlling or directing a global anti islamic propaganda machine. i think what's happened is the internet has enabled people who feel this way to meet others around the world and share ideas and re-enforce what they think by finding 100s of other angry folks who feel the same way. And they all sit around and write articles and share rants and stroke eachother's .... egos, and so if you read an anti muslim site in NL or CH or USA they'll have a lot of the same feel since the authors are all mutually influencing one another.

as someone from the US who's studied this (i did some coursework on muslim integration in europe as part of my Intl Biz Degree, oddly enough) and someone who reads a lot of history, it amazes me how much traction these sorts of populist movements get considering there are so many cases of immigrants moving in waves into host cultures and assimilating just fine after a generation or two.

hell even here with the segundos theres plenty of precendent. my swiss friends talk about how their parents generation used to complain about the italians and portugeuese the way people complain about the kosovar and the dreaded yugos now. and now so freakin' what. i work with a bunch of swiss guys. some of them have italian surnames. aside from that one feature theyre just as swiss as the guys named Urs and Beat. (and on a side note... i have to just say... Beat? Really? Who names their kid Beat?)

as someone from california who has watched the demographic of his home state change drastically since the 80s when i was growing up, my reaction to europeans in general who are worried about "cultural invasion" of Turks (if its in germany) or Algerians (if france) or Moroccans (if spain) or ... you get the idea, i always feel like saying "heres a nice cup of STFU. Where i live, 40% of the people are not from there, and our society is still functioning just fine, and our ethnic restaurants are way better. you guys worried about "muslim subversion of european values" who are worried about 11% minorities need to take some anti paranoia medication.

Simon_Ch good that you have to go straight to insults about my intelligence without knowing anything about me. Speaks volumes about you.

So what you're saying is that the Tagesanzeiger and the French "Inlandgeheimdienst" are both lying?

I quote:

"Die französischen Behörden stufen diese Organisation als rechtsextrem ein. "

"Die Veranstaltung der Riposte Laïque wurde offenbar von Agenten des französischen Inlandgeheimdienstes (Direction centrale du renseignement intérieur) beobachtet. Wie der Reporter von «Le Matin», der Freysinger nach Paris begleitete, schreibt, steht die Riposte Laïque unter Beobachtung, weil sie rechtsextremes Gedankengut verbreitet."

Another quote from an Antifa website:

"Es zeigt sich, dass die SVP bei der Umsetzung ihres rassistischen Programms auch das internationale Zusammengehen mit deutschen Neonazis nicht scheut. Damit entpuppt sich einmal mehr, wo die SVP mit ihren politischen Inhalten steht. Auf gleicher Augenhöhe mit den europäischen Rechtspopulisten, Rassisten und Neonazis."

There's tons more if you do a bit of research:

http://kruppzeuch.wordpress.com/2010...dikale-partei/

http://www.ignoranz.ch/forum/12_2670_0.html


And what do you do (apart from ridiculing me)?
You quote from the official website of the organisation itself.

Is the BNP a right wing racist party? Of course not I can just link to their „about us page“ on their official website which says the opposite.

Very clever!

Racist, yes.

Right wing, no.

They have too many old fashioned socialist policies to be proper right wingers.

Dunno about the SVP, though, apart from the fact that I intend to vote for them as soon as I'm able, just to annoy those who incessantly whine about them.

Sigh.. you're really making it too easy for me. What you posted is exactly what I'm saying, you use extreme right and Neonazi interchangeably, which the only serious source you quoted (Tagesanzeiger) does not. That the Antifa (extreme left) doesn't care much about these "semantics" only shows their level of sophistation and how serious they can be taken.

So again, to my humble knowledge Freysinger has absolutely nothing to do with Nazis, Neonazis, he even distanced himself publically from the Front National (major party in France) because they still have some questionable figures in their ranks. As I said, unless you know something that I don't, your Neonazi allegations are nonsense and force me to play the devils advocate.

Or as Leni correctly observed:

its funny how right wing can mean a lot of different things now depending on the country.

the Right wing in the US varies from small business friendly fiscal responsible types to the bat sh*t insane science/evolution denying xtian right who'd put all my gay friends in concentration camps given half a chance.

yet the Right in Germany, say, while being probusiness is not insane at all like the US is; can you imagine a republican candidate supporting Harz IV or the german health care system? I guess its same with the SVP, who seem to love playing on the anti foreigner bit and flirt with a form of pseudo nationalism and a reversion to "traditionalist values" or whatever, but wouldnt touch the social welfare aspects of things...

i dunno. maybe ive just not been here long enough but the Right seems so harmless here compared to the delusional war mongers and bible thumpers back in the land of my birth that i cant bring myself to get too excited about them.

...doesn't change though that he is a huge hero for e.g. NPD!

How about the verbal abuse that SVP stands for? Physical abuse is of course not good, but also verbal abuse should be considered...

SVP is attacked due to their provocations and verbal abuse, lies and fearmongering...I call "selber schuld"

People tend to adapt themselves to the same level as the party they criticize...

Thanks for being patronising again Simon. I'm sorry but for me "Rechtsextrem" and Neonazis are the same. Or can you please explain to me what the difference is, ideologically? I'm not talking about right wing.

The Tagesanzeiger clearly states that Riposte Laïque is considered "Rechtsextrem" and is being watched by French authorities because of it.
"Rechtsextrem" in my opinion are organisations/parties like DVU, NPD.

Freysinger also seems to have attended other similar events:

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/26910145

"Die Freiheit" party (which Freysinger associates himself with) has a lot of old extremists in their ranks, same as Pro Köln.

Interesting Article:

http://blog.zeit.de/joerglau/2010/11...-freiheit_4347

I knew you would pounce on the Antifa link. You criticise me for posting a biased link when you post a link straight from the Riposte Laïque site.
Talk about hypocrisy! Just shows how biased you are politically. Anything is credible as long as it's not a leftist view eh?

And Freysinger isn't the only case in the SVP:

Keyword Dominique Baettig:

Im Vorfeld zur Abstimmung der Weiterführung der Personenfreizügigkeit und deren Ausdehnung auf Rumänien und Bulgarien verwendete Baettig antiziganistische Klischees.[3] Im Dezember 2009 fragte Baettig den Bundesrat in einem parlamentarischen Vorstoss nach den "Folgekosten des Eindringes gebietsfremder Arten", wobei Baettig Ausländer mit Insekten und Pflanzen verglich.[4][5][6] Äusserungen von Baettig zur Volksinitiative «Gegen den Bau von Minaretten» im Oktober 2009 am Kongress der rechtsextremistischen Bewegung Les Identitaires in Südfrankreich wurden von der Stiftung gegen Rassismus und Antisemitismus als verbaler Rassismus eingestuft.[7][8] Baettig war zu seiner Studentenzeit bei rechtsextremen Gruppierungen aktiv, von denen er sich inzwischen teilweise distanziert habe. Nach wie vor können aber einige seiner Ansichten als revisionistisch eingestuft werden, was auf eine ideologische Nähe zum Rechtsextremismus schliessen lässt

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Baettig

As much as I dislike the SVP propaganda and policies, there are some ideas behind their rhetoric that are shared by perfectly reasonable non-partisan people and that are backed with some facts.

Same can be said for Hitler's Germany.

A) Why should he NOT be surrounding by people of his kind ?
B) He IS a SVP politician with rethoric skills and so is not just tolerated by his party .....
C) that he so often goes abroad to speak shows clearly that he is not "tolerated" by the public

Of course Islam is a threat to anyone who is insecure about themselves and their own ideology, and have lost the need and the thing to believe (in). So is any new idea, so is multiculturalism. To the same extent as Christianity has been a threat, Science has been a treat, etc. This guy has no problem with colonization of the world, actually he seems eager to revive it. He has no problem with globalization and the export of western culture to the entire planet.
Their argument is self-destructive: when islam is no more a threat, then something 'different' will become one... hip-hop will be a threat, asian food will be a treat. And when plurality, differences, and multiculturalism are prevented, that, I'm afraid, is the end of democracy and the world!

Well he IS tolerated by the public if it still votes for a party that tolerates people like Freysinger and Baettig within its own ranks.

It already is.

See, I am actually in no mood to defend Freysinger, bash Islam or eat small children for breakfast.

I just have one wish: it's perfectly fine to bash the SVP and its proponents from time to time, but please, please do get your facts right, skim through an article or wikipedia before you post and contemplate for a minute if what you post adds anything of value to the discussion or is just another wildly misinformed and misleading post of someone who's never bothered to even listen to the accused in the first place.

Thank you.

An interesting speech. For a change (he he) I agree with Wollishofener, the content of the speech may be somewhat lacking in factual support but it must be said, Freysinger is an excellent rhetor - delivery, emphasis, body language are all very impressive and it's easy to see how he got where he is.

Some of his speech strikes a chord with many at this time, like it or not, there is a growing feeling of resentment towards Islam and the change (or erosion as some would have it) of Western cultural norms. Whether this is right or not will be decided by history. Yes hate will breed more hate. Doing nothing or ignoring an issue will not solve it either. Appeasement has demonstrably failed against extremism in the past, something that Europe and indeed much of the world learned at a very high price within living memory.
What I find tiresome is that the defenders of Islam always point to the negatives as being purely the world of fanatics. Sadly though, the apparent majority of moderate muslims don't appear to be doing very much to stop such fanatacism. There is a growing trend towards radicalism in the Muslim world. eg, Saudi Arabia sponsored, indeed built many schools in Pakistan. The downside is that they are based upon the Saudi preferred version of Islam, Wahabi, which is characterised by fundamental views. One result (it might be argued, I'm not commenting on whether this is correct or not) is that there are now large numbers of graduates in Pakistan that know an awful lot about the Koran but Pakistan is suffering a shortage of well qualified graduates in Science, Engineering, Mathematics and other subjects. Plus, there hardly seems to be a day go by without news of some new atrocity in Pakistan which is of course always blamed on the extremists or the fundamentalists.

It should be remembered, and this applies to all religions, from the fundamentalists point of view, the moderates within the faith are failures. They do not live their lives in strict accordance with the words of the relevant holy book, they have decided to pick and choose which bits of dogma to accept and they are therefore impure, incomplete, not in accordance with the will of whichever brand of god they prefer. In the fundamentalist view, the only correct religious way to live your life is as a fundamentalist, believing each and every word and acting upon it.

__________________
Mens sana in campari soda

Amen to that. I did provide sources but apparently I was talking out of my behind.

It's difficult to deal with facts when it comes to SVP, because themselves has none, all their "statements" are just taken from thin air, and this is a party that gets almost 30% from the Swiss voters, this is trully worrying and terrifying...how can all those people just buy it...normally these kind of parties get around 5-10% max!

But here they are the biggest party with their "non-saying" politics..."blame it on the foreigners", "cut the taxes" "if you don't think as we do you're not swiss enough"...that the message...and it does not contribute to anything in regard to the evolution of Switzerland...

SVP themselves are lost, how can people expect that the critics are giving feedback backed on hard facts...it's impossible,

E.g. Oskar is afraid that europe will be taken over by radical muslims, he doesn't like "multi-culture" societies etc. What kind of response do you expect from statements like that? Of course the response will be on the same level, i.e. that he's a nazi, facist, moron, fearmongering paranoid etc. End of story