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  #41  
Old 27.09.2011, 09:31
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Longer approach-times for an airport are deadly. You can argue, as you do, that such things do not directly reduce the landing-capacities, accepted, but ARE negative for an airport.
For mid and long haul flights an extra 3-5 minutes on the STARS is nothing to write home about as long as everyone is sequenced properly.

PS.

The forecast is great for Saturday. Fly in lunch anyone?
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  #42  
Old 10.10.2011, 10:27
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

The anti-airport flyers are out. Was disappointed to see the Green Liberals supporting this biased referendum. There's a naïvety about airports that belies belief. It's not as though things are going to noticeably change. Building work for high speed runway exits will have zero implication for the local neighborhoods and will make the airport more efficient and therefore safer.

Again, it's criticial for all of Switzerland that ZRH remains competitive; it's not just the locals around Zürich Airport that are affected. Very important that this suggested stranglehold vote is kicked out November 27.
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  #43  
Old 10.10.2011, 10:33
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Again, it's criticial for all of Switzerland that ZRH remains competitive; it's not just the locals around Zürich Airport that are affected. Very important that this suggested stranglehold vote is kicked out November 27.
I totally agree, Zurich is a $*ithole...but the airport is alright and competitive (something that I would never dare to say about Zurich or Switzerland for that matter). I therefore support all plans that would help modernize/bring certain parts of this country to the 21st century. I was actually just at the airport yesterday watching the planes land.
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  #44  
Old 10.10.2011, 19:30
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

Look at THIS :
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/zueric....12868615.html
> ex Bundesrat Moritz Leuenberger fights in favour Zürich-Airport I hope he with his popularity manages to take some Social Democrats with him, in spite of the official party-line.
> this development means that for once, the old friends, adversaries, rivals and partners, Messrs Leuenberger and Blocher, will be fighting on the same side
> it will be a problem for SP politician like Mr Hardegger from Rümlang, whose town heavily depends on the airport and from where heaps of people work in civil aviation
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  #45  
Old 10.10.2011, 20:34
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

I read about Leuenberger in the Tagi today. I can't accuse him of anything yet, but he wasn't exactly a godsend regarding the negotiations with Germany about ZRH in the past when he was transport minister in the Bundesrat.

Kind of like casting Roger Federer to take on the Austrians in downhill skiing.
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Old 10.10.2011, 20:49
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

The jets are nowhere near as noisy as the churchbells, and the jets are quiet between 6AM and 11PM. I can't see the problem.

It's not like it was in the old days when you'd have a big noisy Death Crate-10 fly over. Those planes are gone from these parts, and the newer planes are much quieter.
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  #47  
Old 10.10.2011, 20:58
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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I read about Leuenberger in the Tagi today. I can't accuse him of anything yet, but he wasn't exactly a godsend regarding the negotiations with Germany about ZRH in the past when he was transport minister in the Bundesrat.

Kind of like casting Roger Federer to take on the Austrians in downhill skiing.
Those negotiations were lost by Switzerland before they even were started. It was as Libya had taken on the Austrians in downhill skiing. The Zurich Cantonal government had treated people north of the border as non-existing for decades which was exceedingly shortsighted. They should have taken up matters with the Landesregierung in Stuttgart long long before. The matter DErailed when a local politician from the area of Hohentengen took the matter to Berlin and onto a Federal level. This was why the matter became a union matter on both sides, with Zürich and Stuttgart completely on the side.

Bad about him rather was how he wanted to nationalize the three airports of ZRH BSL GVA and have them taken over by the union. Sure it was in a time when an "expert" told me that Zurich-Airport would not make any profit ever again

But what matters NOW is his position on the matter NOW and that he still has a considerable polarity, not least among leftwingers. And many SP-Realos may follow his lead. I mean Mr Schnaps, oh sorry I mean Wermuth, is not THE Swiss Social Democracy
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Old 10.10.2011, 21:12
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

Airline/airfreight operations in/out of a city severely impact the economic activity around that city or even the country. Emirates has played a huge part in making Dubai a popular destination although the majority of Emirates' traffic is transit traffic. However, even having people in transit can increase economic activity. People with even short layovers at Dubai, tend to go out and shop.

In the mid/late 80s ZRH cargo facilities were bursting at its seams. Swissair (SR) along with the airport authorities came up with plans of building additional cargo handling/processing facilities within the airport. These plans were voted down. Swissair and Zurich suffered enormously because of that. With severe capacity constraints, cargo product quality offered by ZRH airport and SR took a beating. If I remember correctly plans for additional runways etc. were voted down as well. As result, ZRH is nowhere near any of the major airports in Europe.

Just see the following as an example:

Lufthansa Warns Frankfurt on Night Flight Ban
Bruce Barnard | Aug 23, 2011 2:29PM GMT
The Journal of Commerce Online - News Story
Cargo Airlines | International Air | Air + Expedited | Europe | Western Europe | Middle East
CEO says ban would allow the Middle East to overtake Europe as global cargo hub
Lufthansa is warning that a planned ban on night time flights at Frankfurt airport would allow the Middle East to overtake Europe as a global cargo hub.
“The threat of a night flight ban is hanging like the Sword of Damocles over Frankfurt,” Lufthansa CEO Christoph Franz told a logistics conference at the German carrier’s Frankfurt hub.
“Gulf states want to replace Europe as a freight hub. We need internationally competitive operating times and that means night flights,” Franz said.
Franz pointed to Qatar Airways’ purchase of a 35 percent stake in Cargolux, Europe’s largest all-cargo carrier, and Dubai’s plans to significantly increase its freight capacity.
“If companies are to invest heavily in infrastructure and modern and efficient aircraft...they require planning security,” said Lufthansa Cargo CEO Karl Ulrich Garnadt.
A court in Leipzig will shortly decide whether to allow an appeal calling for a complete ban on night flights at Frankfurt in the fall just before Europe’s biggest cargo hub plans to open a new runway.
Two years ago Frankfurt agreed to cut the maximum number of flights between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. to 17 from a previous ceiling of 41 in order to win planning approval from the state of Hesse for a multi-billion dollar expansion in capacity.
Now Hesse is seeking to completely outlaw night time flights under pressure from environmentalists.
Lufthansa Cargo warned in the past that it might have to sell its entire fleet of 18 MD-11 freighters if night flights are banned.
A night flight ban would result in thousands of job losses at trucking companies and freight forwarders, according to industry estimates.

-- Contact Bruce Barnard at brucebarndard47@hotmail.com.
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Old 10.10.2011, 21:20
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Old 10.10.2011, 22:19
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Airline/airfreight operations in/out of a city severely impact the economic activity around that city or even the country. Emirates has played a huge part in making Dubai a popular destination although the majority of Emirates' traffic is transit traffic. However, even having people in transit can increase economic activity. People with even short layovers at Dubai, tend to go out and shop.

In the mid/late 80s ZRH cargo facilities were bursting at its seams. Swissair (SR) along with the airport authorities came up with plans of building additional cargo handling/processing facilities within the airport. These plans were voted down. Swissair and Zurich suffered enormously because of that. With severe capacity constraints, cargo product quality offered by ZRH airport and SR took a beating. If I remember correctly plans for additional runways etc. were voted down as well. As result, ZRH is nowhere near any of the major airports in Europe.

Just see the following as an example:

Lufthansa Warns Frankfurt on Night Flight Ban
Bruce Barnard | Aug 23, 2011 2:29PM GMT
The Journal of Commerce Online - News Story
Cargo Airlines | International Air | Air + Expedited | Europe | Western Europe | Middle East
CEO says ban would allow the Middle East to overtake Europe as global cargo hub
Lufthansa is warning that a planned ban on night time flights at Frankfurt airport would allow the Middle East to overtake Europe as a global cargo hub.
“The threat of a night flight ban is hanging like the Sword of Damocles over Frankfurt,” Lufthansa CEO Christoph Franz told a logistics conference at the German carrier’s Frankfurt hub.
“Gulf states want to replace Europe as a freight hub. We need internationally competitive operating times and that means night flights,” Franz said.
Franz pointed to Qatar Airways’ purchase of a 35 percent stake in Cargolux, Europe’s largest all-cargo carrier, and Dubai’s plans to significantly increase its freight capacity.
“If companies are to invest heavily in infrastructure and modern and efficient aircraft...they require planning security,” said Lufthansa Cargo CEO Karl Ulrich Garnadt.
A court in Leipzig will shortly decide whether to allow an appeal calling for a complete ban on night flights at Frankfurt in the fall just before Europe’s biggest cargo hub plans to open a new runway.
Two years ago Frankfurt agreed to cut the maximum number of flights between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. to 17 from a previous ceiling of 41 in order to win planning approval from the state of Hesse for a multi-billion dollar expansion in capacity.
Now Hesse is seeking to completely outlaw night time flights under pressure from environmentalists.
Lufthansa Cargo warned in the past that it might have to sell its entire fleet of 18 MD-11 freighters if night flights are banned.
A night flight ban would result in thousands of job losses at trucking companies and freight forwarders, according to industry estimates.

-- Contact Bruce Barnard at brucebarndard47@hotmail.com.
in the meantime, the cargo handling capacity has been vastly expanded by extensions to the existing buildings and quite recently by a new trucking-handling building right accross from Freight Terminal East. The combined facilities of Cargologic (Rhenus) and DNATA (Dubai) now are FAR better than they were five or ten years ago.

Sure, there were ideas to relocate cargo over to Rümlang but that would have meant to transfer cargo underground from Rümlang to the airplanes, and a move of the whole infrastructure. Nobody was too enthusiastic over that idea. And while it may not have to do with the handling capacity cargo-wise, that the Cargo Terminal is now directly linked to Trams 10 and 12 is absolutely positive to people involved.

If you further on look at the cargo-acceptance hours, changes decided upon in the 1980ies finally came into effect in the past 10 years, as did changes to the traffic "regime" also already decided about in the 80ies.

Sure, as a result of complicated procedures, permanent public votes, narrowness of the terrain etc, Zurich Airport development wise is an extremely slow airport indeed.

But progress IS achieved nevertheless.

Another matter is Private Aviation, in English called General Aviation. ZRH wants to get as much of that as possible moved OUT. The airport-administration would favour a relocation to Dübendorf but that is opposed by the construction-industry-lobby with "Greenish-Leftist" support. BUT it will take place, even if the GA in question will be widely distributed to Speck-Fehraltorf, Mollis, Lachen, Birrfeld, Triengen and Altenrhein. Depending on the MTOW (max. take off weight) limits to be adapted, parts of the present GAC terminals might become free for the cargo terminal.
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Old 10.10.2011, 22:23
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Will the Cisalpino be stopping at Malapensa? It could be you're right but it's the first I'm hearing of it.
The Cisalpino WILL have a stop at Malpensa for sure. This has been in the media for years actually. The only question to me is whether the Zürich-Lugano-Malpensa trains in the end will go, just as the Zurigo-Lugano-Chiasso-Como-Milano trains, to Milano Centrale or Milano Norte. Milano Norte is not as central as Milano Centrale but a good and well connected rail-station with possibly a bit more reserves still than the Stazione Centrale.
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  #52  
Old 10.10.2011, 22:31
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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in the meantime, the cargo handling capacity has been vastly expanded by extensions to the existing buildings and quite recently by a new trucking-handling building right accross from Freight Terminal East. The combined facilities of Cargologic (Rhenus) and DNATA (Dubai) now are FAR better than they were five or ten years ago.

Sure, there were ideas to relocate cargo over to Rümlang but that would have meant to transfer cargo underground from Rümlang to the airplanes, and a move of the whole infrastructure. Nobody was too enthusiastic over that idea. And while it may not have to do with the handling capacity cargo-wise, that the Cargo Terminal is now directly linked to Trams 10 and 12 is absolutely positive to people involved.

If you further on look at the cargo-acceptance hours, changes decided upon in the 1980ies finally came into effect in the past 10 years, as did changes to the traffic "regime" also already decided about in the 80ies.

Sure, as a result of complicated procedures, permanent public votes, narrowness of the terrain etc, Zurich Airport development wise is an extremely slow airport indeed.

But progress IS achieved nevertheless.

Another matter is Private Aviation, in English called General Aviation. ZRH wants to get as much of that as possible moved OUT. The airport-administration would favour a relocation to Dübendorf but that is opposed by the construction-industry-lobby with "Greenish-Leftist" support. BUT it will take place, even if the GA in question will be widely distributed to Speck-Fehraltorf, Mollis, Lachen, Birrfeld, Triengen and Altenrhein. Depending on the MTOW (max. take off weight) limits to be adapted, parts of the present GAC terminals might become free for the cargo terminal.
Thats good to know. Although I get the feeling that all this is now perhaps a case of having missed the boat. At the same time, I am aware that LX Cargo is doing exceedingly well and perhaps the new facilities are helping them grow.

The larger point though, is that airport and the facilities in it have a direct bearing on the economic prosperity, and prosperity comes at a cost.

It might be great to have less flights, less noise and peaceful sleep but then the opposite side of this is job losses, people moving away, and a general downturn. At the height of SR, if I remember correctly, Kloten was a bustling town with almost 70% population having something to do with airline/airport related activity .
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  #53  
Old 10.10.2011, 23:45
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Thats good to know. Although I get the feeling that all this is now perhaps a case of having missed the boat. At the same time, I am aware that LX Cargo is doing exceedingly well and perhaps the new facilities are helping them grow.

The larger point though, is that airport and the facilities in it have a direct bearing on the economic prosperity, and prosperity comes at a cost.

It might be great to have less flights, less noise and peaceful sleep but then the opposite side of this is job losses, people moving away, and a general downturn. At the height of SR, if I remember correctly, Kloten was a bustling town with almost 70% population having something to do with airline/airport related activity .
ZRH does not have LESS flights than in the past but more than ever, and more airlines than ever before serve ZRH. True, there were fewer flights in the five years after SR collapse. There is no "general downturn" now. You only speak about Kloten which is not to the point, as Glattbrugg, Rümlang, Oberglatt and Bülach are as much "airport town" as Kloten, and there also some 70% of the population have something to do with civil aviation related activity.

You may have heard that Terminal "B" will be reactivated in full rather shortly, and with a much higher effectivness than in the past, which means that ZRH will have more real capacity than ever.

Look at Swiss International Airlines which right now has as many airplanes and as many flights as Swissair had in its highdays and shortly will have more.

Alright, what I say here sounds positive but in reality is not. Why not ? Because Zurich already now is not and will not be in a position to expand in the way of München FJS or Milano Malpensa. Unfortunate really is the point that Geneva, the long-time rival of ZRH, also is approaching its limits and the capacities of BSL MLH are close to its limits as well. I hate it but much in future will depend on the rail station Zch-HB, Zch-Oerlikon and ZRH offering the swiftest possible links to MUC & MXP, with maybe even having check-in facilities at ZRH-apt for MXP and MUC. Science Fiction ? No, not at all, just a look into the future. Turicum was established by the Romans due to its location. If modern Zurich uses this location with all its advantages and disadvantages correctly, this City can keep its metropolitan role happily into the future. For realism, look at the size of München and Milano, and you will get the full picture. Both cities for many decades had ridiculous airports, and these two cities having twice as much airtraffic as Zurich is no shame for Zurich but rather a Return to Normalcy !
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Old 11.10.2011, 07:06
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

There are still a bunch of open issues beyond this cantonal referendum. As Wolli points out, the future of Dübendorf airfield is also critical to Zürich and the whole area since the military withdrew their fighters about six years ago. Fact is, Dübendorf is now completely under utilized. This is not so much because of it's location, rather because it has become a victim of cross party politics and rabid anti-noise protests. Dübendorf was the birthplace of Swiss military aviation and Swissair's home base until the new airport at Kloten was built in the late 1940s.

These days, the urbanization of the area has meant that many of the areas surrounding Dübendorf airfield have been built up (Wangen, Volketswil, Gutenschwil) bringing new residents who have no idea how quiet the airfield is now compared to it's heydays back in the 1970s and 1980s when jet noise was the norm every day, including Saturday mornings back then.

The military maintains a helicopter facility and light transport unit, but the real future of Dübendorf should be maintenance of business jets that is currently taking place at ZRH. Maintenance work requires hardly any real movements (one inbound flight and one departure) and provides beneficial employment opportunities to an area rich in aviation talent.

Moreover, it would make sense to move the General Aviation airplanes out of ZRH into Dübendorf to free up costly slots and also to prevent delays for airliners whilst a small Cessna, for example, hogs one of the active ZRH runways. This is not without problems, as departures from ZRH's runway 16 always have to turn left after wheels up and fly right over Dübendorf, meaning that both airfields have to co-ordinate their movements, plus Dübendorf only has one runway and landing from the west cannot be straight in, rather a tight curve over populated areas.

Time for someone to make a decision. The Air Force has recently made it clear that they want to maintain their presence in Dübendorf for as long as possible beyond the 2014 deadline that was meant to be the end of their operations, but has now been extended.
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Old 11.10.2011, 15:52
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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And finally, what do I prefer, an A330 flying overhead (here and gone in about 20 seconds) or the noise of the neighbour's lawnmower or his kid's souped up "töffli" that sounds like a strangled mosquito going up and down the road seeing if he can beat the local land-speed record ? Give me the A330 any day....
The real problem is at night: if your neighbour does these noises then you can phone the police and complain. However, if the airport noise goes above the statutory limits at night you just have to accept it! At least in Zurich things normally stop by 11h30 pm: here in Geneva it is 00h30 am (even later when the airport authorities give permissions), for an airport practically in the middle of town.
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Old 11.10.2011, 15:59
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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The real problem is at night: if your neighbour does these noises then you can phone the police and complain. However, if the airport noise goes above the statutory limits at night you just have to accept it! At least in Zurich things normally stop by 11h30 pm: here in Geneva it is 00h30 am (even later when the airport authorities give permissions), for an airport practically in the middle of town.
Agreed, but night movements are the exception rather than the rule in Zürich (very few easyJet flights!). ZRH has been an airport since 1948, so unless one is that old, you probably knew that there was an airport in your neighborhood before moving there.
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Old 11.10.2011, 16:11
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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The real problem is at night: if your neighbour does these noises then you can phone the police and complain. However, if the airport noise goes above the statutory limits at night you just have to accept it! At least in Zurich things normally stop by 11h30 pm: here in Geneva it is 00h30 am (even later when the airport authorities give permissions), for an airport practically in the middle of town.
Who cares...I mean people who moved to the area knew that there is an airport. That's what is pissing me off about Switzerland...no flexibility and because of that, everybody has to suffer and inhibits growth and developement. I'd say ferk it and expand that mothaf****..but do it right and not the Swiss way...expand it so it will be big enough for the next 50 years or so.
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Old 11.10.2011, 16:19
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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Moreover, it would make sense to move the General Aviation airplanes out of ZRH into Dübendorf to free up costly slots and also to prevent delays for airliners whilst a small Cessna, for example, hogs one of the active ZRH runways.
I always said MFGZ should teach high speed final approaches, with flaps put out only over the treshold if at all. If we can do it, so can they

(oh and hope the MFGZ Cessna I met in Avignon last week had a safe trip back - hoi zaeme ).
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Old 11.10.2011, 16:38
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

I could do with an airport out in the Aagau, save me a 45 minute journey to Zurich flug. ... problem is finding a bit of flat land more than 200 metres long...
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Old 11.10.2011, 21:01
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Re: Zürich Airport - Say "No" for a "Yes" November 27, 2011

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I could do with an airport out in the Aagau, save me a 45 minute journey to Zurich flug. ... problem is finding a bit of flat land more than 200 metres long...

Develop the airfield of Birrfeld to commercial air-traffic status. And rename the Birrfeld Airfield to Brugg-Baden-International-Airport
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