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  #201  
Old 21.09.2011, 19:56
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I'm normally pretty liberal when it comes to what women do with their own bodies, but...

After seeing films like "Born into Brothels" (about the forced sex trade in India), it's hard for me to accept prostitution on any level. Because I'm not sure which situation I find more disturbing -- the woman or child who is forced into prostitution by men and/or poverty... or the woman who does it so she can afford a Gucci handbag and who tries to glorify it and convince herself that it's a compliment to be paid for her sexuality.
I have experience on cases where women were being trafficked as sex workers. Some 'friend' of a 'friend' of an 'acquaintance' of 'some guy' will pay their way and promise to cover their food and lodging to get them set up in a "better life". They always travel in pairs, but pretend not to know each other. In exchange, they understand that they will have to work. Even though they in the new country as tourists, they think the work is legitimate and honorable -- but somehow don't question whether they need permission to work. Probably due to the young age. Perhaps they think they will be working in a restaurant or a grocery store, as examples. What ends up happening though is that they arrive to a life of indentured servitude as prostitutes. The guys that are trafficking these women are the scum of the earth, and really they are quite cowardly when confronted with the dehumanizing nature of their craft.

All that said... I don't think it's necessarily wrong if someone wants to become a prostitute by his or her own free will. Nor do I think it's wrong if someone wants to patronize one. That's his or her own morality to deal with -- not mine. However, when free will and choice are taken away from someone, and the person is indentured and enslaved, that's where it becomes criminal, degrading and outright disgusting. Prostitution isn't the problem; human trafficking and slavery are.
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  #202  
Old 21.09.2011, 20:25
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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What's worse, selling your body, or your mind?

A body is just a body (and a bath will clean it just fine), a mind is who you are.

Think about it.

Tom
I don't think it works that way. If you are forced you sell your body, you are also forcing your mind to accept that this is what you deserve or what you really are. Emotional and physical abuse go hand in hand in cases of coerced prostitution.

Unsurprisingly, those women or girls who are abducted or tricked into the prostitution business are, first of all, repeatedly raped and persuaded they are nothing but scum by whoever "owns" them. This breaks their will to fight or try to escape. Often their passport or other personal ID document is withheld, and other form of threats (real or simply "psychological") are used to keep them in line.

Of course not all prostitutes are forced into the business. I knew a girl for instance who had been a hooker to pay college. In her case, yes, she really did sell only her body not her mind. To her, it was really nothing but business and having met her later, when she had already given that up, I never thought there was something shameful about her past. She has never given up her dignity. To be honest, I felt nothing but respect for her intelligence, iron will and personality. She was one of the most interesting and intellectually stimulating people I've ever met.
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  #203  
Old 21.09.2011, 22:19
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

So I wonder how many men give the girl/s a proper interview before the deed- to ensure that they are no trafficked or pimped by bas***d/s- and that they are one of the very few who is happy with their choice. Or do they think that because 1 in every umpteen 0000s is free willing, it's OK to assume they all are (especially the 16 year olds).
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  #204  
Old 21.09.2011, 22:43
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I know a LOT about this world more than you do(i'm 100% sure)
I think you are taking the D biscuit here ! We all know DB is the D......B..........ks when it comes to discusions, but of course you must have known that already since you know more than him.
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Old 22.09.2011, 00:18
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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When waiting for my friend to go clubbing, this Albanian girl approached me and wanted to offer her services. I was(still i am) broke and was engaged too so nothing.
I've just noticed this, and feel obliged to comment.

Many years ago, when working in a rough part of Wolverhampton, I was approached by a prostitute looking for 'business'. I was neither broke nor engaged. I politely refused.

I refused because paying for sex with strangers who may be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees is wrong - to some extent because most of those strangers are not enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees - but mainly because it's just plain wrong. But absolute morals are a bit unfashionable these days, so I'll leave that argument for a while.

So... returning to the notion that some of these women might be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees, could we not argue that, by extension, rape is fine, too? After all, many women, supposedly, fantasise about it, enjoy it, want it.

Never mind that most of them don't, surely it must be ok, going by the logic used in support of prostitution presented by some people in this thread, no?

As Odile observed above: if you visit a prostitute, do you interview her first to establish that she's one of these mythical creatures who are enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay her college fees, or do you just get down to it without regard for the irritating and inconvenient facts of prostitution?

I eagerly await your responses.
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  #206  
Old 22.09.2011, 00:33
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I've just noticed this, and feel obliged to comment.

Many years ago, when working in a rough part of Wolverhampton, I was approached by a prostitute looking for 'business'. I was neither broke nor engaged. I politely refused.

I refused because paying for sex with strangers who may be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees is wrong - to some extent because most of those strangers are not enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees - but mainly because it's just plain wrong. But absolute morals are a bit unfashionable these days, so I'll leave that argument for a while.

So... returning to the notion that some of these women might be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees, could we not argue that, by extension, rape is fine, too? After all, many women, supposedly, fantasise about it, enjoy it, want it.

Never mind that most of them don't, surely it must be ok, going by the logic used in support of prostitution presented by some people in this thread, no?

As Odile observed above: if you visit a prostitute, do you interview her first to establish that she's one of these mythical creatures who are enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay her college fees, or do you just get down to it without regard for the irritating and inconvenient facts of prostitution?

I eagerly await your responses.

Your childish innocence might be endearing to some, but I can't be bothered with it any more.


Those are some words in one of your precendent posts. So please follow your own advice. You have no intention(as i said before) to contribute to this thread and are laughing to people who has been involved directly(or indirectly) with this kind of stuff. Your only intention is to have the last word and prove that your were/are right.
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Old 22.09.2011, 00:34
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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wriggle wriggle wriggle.
Awkward question for you, eh?
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Old 22.09.2011, 00:34
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I eagerly await your responses.
I respond that this is clearly a topic about which you feel very strongly, and you argue very coherently and passionately....but I think we have gone around in circles on the main point several times, and your extrapolations here are getting a touch tenuous to me.

I see it in a very black and white way

1. If a woman is having sex with men and being paid for it and it is truly her choice, she is safe, healthy, morally strong and happy, its ok for her to make that choice

2. If she isn't, it isnt

3. Since nobody can ever truly know if the first case exists, and since in 99% of cases if probably doesn't....its probably best to not take the risk of condemning the woman to a life of deepening difficulty.
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  #209  
Old 22.09.2011, 00:38
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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1. If a woman is having sex with men and being paid for it and it is truly her choice, she is safe, healthy, morally strong and happy, its ok for her to make that choice

2. If she isn't, it isnt

3. Since nobody can ever truly know if the first case exists, and since in 99% of cases if probably doesn't....its probably best to not take the risk of condemning the woman to a life of deepening difficulty.
I need to take lessons in concise writing from you, old chap.

Well said.
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Old 22.09.2011, 00:46
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I need to take lessons in concise writing from you, old chap.

Well said.
Sorry to interrupt your rutting though.....
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Old 22.09.2011, 00:56
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I refused because paying for sex with strangers who may be enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees is wrong - to some extent because most of those strangers are not enjoying it/minting it/writing a book about it/doing it to pay their college fees - but mainly because it's just plain wrong.

I eagerly await your responses.
Well, alright, I'll take the bait.

Why? Why is it wrong?

If someone wants to pay me to rub their back, that's fine; if they want to pay me to rub their johnson that's not fine? Or only wrong if I let them put their johnson in a bodily orifice? Why?

Is this a common decency thing?

Yes I know there are women who are coerced and forced into a sex slave trade, which is clearly wrong. But someone who turns tricks, pimp or no pimp, because they chose to- for whatever reasons- they chose to; why is it fundamentally wrong to pay them for their services?

"What father wants his daughter to grow up to be a prostitute?"

I doubt that any caring father wants that.

What father wants his child to grow up to foreclose on family homes? What father wants his child to be CEO of a company who shuts down their factory and ships production to a sweatshop in a 3rd world country? I know I know- we can't bring that sh!t into this discussion, not allowed. Wrong. We're talking about sex here. The destruction of families' lives and child labor and all that is another discussion (funny we don't have biannual threads dozens of pages long on those topics ) So TF what? If someone chooses to offer sex for money, and someone is willing to pay, why is that wrong? On a fundamental level, I ask? Common decency? I suppose? And I'll bet if we get a foreclosure thread going there will be plenty of comments like,'Oh they should have planned ahead, it's not the bank's fault they missed a few payments', or a sweatshop thread,'well, business is business, one has to do what's necessary to compete in a global market'. Yeah yeah. So a chick decides to take a job selling her bod rather than be a cashier at the Relay, now the world is really going rotten. Ha!

I wouldn't be a customer, I find it distasteful and it turns my stomach. I would probably have reservations about dealing with someone who frequents prostitutes, as I would about many other people, because I find certain things incompatible with my personal moral code. But to declare something simply wrong invites a bit more discussion. So on with the dead horse (which I find delicious BTW, but many others find unacceptable and morally wrong to consume ).
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Old 22.09.2011, 01:11
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

I realize that the tl;dr effect is great on posts over a few lines and without pics.



The above is right. I think we all agree.



The above is wrong. I think we all agree.


But, is walking past a burning car and not helping the bloke underneath right or wrong? Probably wrong? If paying for sex is wrong, is it not also wrong to not actively save the girls on the corner? How much distance is needed to justify inaction?
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:35
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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I wouldn't be a customer, I find it distasteful and it turns my stomach.
Genuine question: why does it turn your stomach then? I mean, I know various reasons why it turns mine, but then I also think it's wrong to pay for sex.
Other things that turn my stomach include cleaning up vomit and force-feeding a disabled child (and yes I do both of those periodically) but they both have a yuck-factor that as far as I can tell isn't present in buying sex.

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And I'll bet if we get a foreclosure thread going there will be plenty of comments like,'Oh they should have planned ahead, it's not the bank's fault they missed a few payments', or a sweatshop thread,'well, business is business, one has to do what's necessary to compete in a global market'. Yeah yeah. So a chick decides to take a job selling her bod rather than be a cashier at the Relay, now the world is really going rotten. Ha!
Of course there will be those comments, but is this thread actually any different? Several people on here have made the same sort of comments about prostitution. And also, this argument in other words says "people do other dastardly things and some of us probably think those are ok so none of us can take the moral high ground on buying sex". Um, some people thought the IRA was alright so the rest of us can't really complain about Al Qaeda? Or maybe we could all just get wise about both.

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Why? Why is it wrong?
All right, here's one reason: most people in the world agree that sex is something you give (by your own choice) and that is in some way related to love. Even people who go in for one night stands will probably expect faithfulness from their partner when they later have one. Even cheating husbands are horrified to find out that she is cheating too! (And presumably vice versa). Why? You don't expect your partner to only ever cook for you, and no one else, or only ever talk to you and no one else, etc. So there is something special about sex, somehow. Maybe it's just evolutionary hardwiring, but it's still there. (Maybe saying murder is wrong is just evolutionary hardwiring too, after all, but we don't argue with that, strangely enough).

Selling sex makes it cheap, in my view. And 500 dollars an hour is cheap compared to investing your time and energy into a relationship, even one that only lasts a few weeks. It's the perks of love (well one of them anyway) without most of the downsides. Funnily enough, when people in other areas of life want all the perks without any of the responsibilities, many of us tend to call them "scroungers" or in the case of CEOs "b*****ds" and, yes, consider it wrong. (That is probably a grossly inadequate comparison but with a toddler pulling on my arm going "Wii Fit! Wii Fit!" it's the best I can do for now).

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If paying for sex is wrong, is it not also wrong to not actively save the girls on the corner? How much distance is needed to justify inaction?
Good video! And I agree, it is. Maybe pointing out that using their services is supporting the human trafficking industry, as in this thread, is also part of the active saving? Like someone else said, take away the demand and the supply should eventually dry up. (And none of us know what each of the others is doing about it in real life - perhaps we all run safe houses for ex-prostitutes!)
Can you suggest some ways people could help? I know of one good place to start: http://www.stopthetraffik.org
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Old 22.09.2011, 10:48
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

I'd happily kill a pimp if I thought I'd get away with it. Why aren't blatant pimps hassled by police more?
I get the feeling that if you as a private individual intervened you would end up in prison for a long time. Lets face it, there's no persuading these types of people to start "being nice". They're just cold predators. So what is the answer?

So far trying to paint prostitution as moral, well, a lot of you are exposing how many assumptions you make in life. Money is not a natural phenomenon so when dealing in moral philosophy it (ironically) has no currency. It's just blackmailing someone to have sex with you, you may as well wave the money in front of them and go "nah-ah-ah... you know what to do..." it's sick behaviour. If I find out someone I know uses prostitutes, well, I lose ALL respect for them.
Look at the suicide rates amongst prostitutes and porn actors/actresses, FAR higher. The emotional and psychological damage of being consistently treated like an animal... and having to act like you agree is NOT a healthy behaviour and the damage is huge. The only women who see no issue with it are those already so damaged by previous abuse that they cannot feel much of anything anymore anyway. Either than, or they are sociopaths solely concerned with money and for whom physical intimacy is nothing but another commodity. There is of course a big difference between sex slavery and independent call-girls but that doesn't necessitate one is forced to accept the latter as acceptable or moral.

An experiment was done with chimps. Rather than simply being given food they were trained to turn a lever in order to earn credits which would then be exchanged for food. The chimps... like our ancestors in the very ancient world, adapted to this slave system quite quickly. A certain gender imbalance began to show however and the foolish scientists couldn't figure it out.

The males were becoming very thin and weak whilst the females appeared to be getting fat, the males also seemed to be earning far less credits than the females. Cameras were installed and surprise surprise, rather than turn the lever to earn credits the females had simply invented prostitution, screwing the males in return for credits. Quite hilarious at first but upon reflection a very disturbing experiment.

Lesson 1) Money IS the root of all evil.
Lesson 2) Men who frequent prostitutes are no better than beasts.
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Old 22.09.2011, 11:51
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Look at the suicide rates amongst prostitutes and porn actors/actresses, FAR higher. The emotional and psychological damage of being consistently treated like an animal... and having to act like you agree is NOT a healthy behaviour and the damage is huge.
I'm not sure whether you aren't confusing cause and effect here. Maybe mentally instable women are more liley to slip into such professions (which is yet another reason to accord them the protection). On a recent business trip I was bored late one night and zapped through the about 1000 TV channels the hotel had on offer and on one there was an interview with an ex-porn actress who told her story of how she got in and how she got out and her apparent total lack of understanding of what was going on was just so embarrassing that I first thought it was some sort of comedy spoof, but it went on for way too long for that and there weren't any punchlines. I really can't magine that any type of work can numb your brains to that extent so can only assume that she was born like that and got easily exploited by hanging out with the wrong folks.
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Old 22.09.2011, 12:02
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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The males were becoming very thin and weak whilst the females appeared to be getting fat, the males also seemed to be earning far less credits than the females. Cameras were installed and surprise surprise, rather than turn the lever to earn credits the females had simply invented prostitution, screwing the males in return for credits. Quite hilarious at first but upon reflection a very disturbing experiment.

Lesson 1) Money IS the root of all evil.
Lesson 2) Men who frequent prostitutes are no better than beasts.
In many primate species, sex is not just a means to reproduction but has various other aspects which is why it is so hard-wired into our brains. In polygamous groups, the alpha male gets the most females and the females associated with him are the higher ranking in the group which is why they compete for his favours. For the females, sex is thus a means to better their own position. The other males get less sex and mostly with the females who aren't attached to the alpha, and if any starts attracting too many females he is a threat to the alpha which is why power struggles ensue.

Much of our primitive hard wiring has been cached and re-programmed by civilisation and education. But some of the patterns are still there. That is why for example rich and succesful men tend to be more attractive for women (think of Tiger Woods). A woman who trades ethics for riches and decides to become a gold digger is popularly considered a whore, and that's because she's just doing a more sophiscticated version of what a prostitute is doing, ie courting males with low moral values but enough spare cash to get a share of that cash.
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Old 22.09.2011, 12:04
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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The males were becoming very thin and weak whilst the females appeared to be getting fat, the males also seemed to be earning far less credits than the females. Cameras were installed and surprise surprise, rather than turn the lever to earn credits the females had simply invented prostitution, screwing the males in return for credits. Quite hilarious at first but upon reflection a very disturbing experiment.

Lesson 1) Money IS the root of all evil.
Lesson 2) Men who frequent prostitutes are no better than beasts.
Uhmm, also, this example seems to show that it's actually men who are the losers in prostitution, not so good for the "all the women are victims" argument. There's always the argument that a lot of anti prostitution vitriol is sheer jealousy and hurt egos.

I won't deny that a lot of horrible stuff goes on in prostitution, and it needs to stop, but if you think you can police what goes on between 2 (or more) consenting adults, you live in cloud cuckoo land.
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Old 22.09.2011, 12:25
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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Careful post dissection trap
Comparing murder to selling sex is streeeetching it a little. (the hardwiring bit)

If I get you right, sex is part of love, and everybody with any common sense or decency agrees. Never had a one night stand have we? Sex on the first date? Did you marry the person?

Prostitution turns my stomach because, like you, I keep sex in my little life cupboard where I keep love as well. But I wouldn't be so bold as to call sex outside of love, or more specifically sex for sale, as fundamentally wrong. I believe a human should have the right to do whatever they please with their body.
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  #219  
Old 22.09.2011, 13:04
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

*sigh* You asked, I replied. What's wrong with dissecting a post, you had three points I wanted to answer so I did, I clearly had no points you cared to consider so you didn't, big deal.

The short answer: It's not such a leap.
Evolution => murder = bad idea (who deserves it? and who decides that?).
Evolution => unfaithful partner= bad idea (whose kids am I raising? will he desert my kids for the kids he fathered over there?). It's hardwired into us.
Or, alternatively, it's something to do with love

I think most people do link sex to (erotic) love, at least in a long-term involvement (and what I said made actually that perfectly clear, if you read it, it's nothing to do with decency blah de blah). Last time I looked, when you love someone you tend to want to have sex with them and for them not to sleep with someone else (fantasy threesomes excepted). Or maybe I'm just some sort of freak in that regard. But well done for reading my entire post and actually bothering to try to understand what I was getting at.
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Old 22.09.2011, 13:07
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Re: Hungarian sex workers flooding to Zurich

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So I wonder how many men give the girl/s a proper interview before the deed- to ensure that they are no trafficked or pimped by bas***d/s- and that they are one of the very few who is happy with their choice. Or do they think that because 1 in every umpteen 0000s is free willing, it's OK to assume they all are (especially the 16 year olds).
Most of these Hungarians don't speak any German AFAIK apart from the handful of vocabulary needed for their work.

Few go there for talking, I imagine....
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